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it's a very political debate as well. you can't deny that. fair enough, you want to fight for science, go for it. but politics are involved intrinsically so they really can't be ignored in this debate. |
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I'll probably be dead before I could actually feel the climate changing. |
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well politicians aren't denying global warming, even bush thinks we should drive less. the discussion is really in the sphere of pseudo-science and the internet |
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shht, he still believes his grandma emigrated to florida |
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I like James Lovelock's Gaia theory; the earth is an elaborate system of all of it's parts in some kind of equilibium. We may change this equilibrium and many of earth's creatures may die in the process but the planet will persist. If we want to survive as a species, we owe it to ourselves to change our behavior and help the earth maintain an equilibration that promotes our own existence. |
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fuck Al Gore, fuck his twat wife, and fuck this movie. well i shouldn't say that, he DID invent the internet, or so he said |
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very clever post |
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manbearpig |
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you're blowing the charts up!!! Keep up the good work |
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honestly, all this talk about global warming, or cooling depending on which half witted intellectuals you speak to is all nonsense and just points out mans flaw of thinking the entire universe and world revolve around him. We are just a tiny little blip in the history of earth. this place will be here long after we're gone. unless we blow it up to teach it a lesson. Excelsior!! |
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this is true. but the point is, if we want our blip to last for longer than a few thousand years, we need to take an active role in preserving a healthy environment. |
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if everbody feels that one's "just a powerless little grain of sand on a beach"... Then the human race is already doomed mate! Our actions do have consequences! and everybody have their bit to play in the massive long term outcome. There seems to be no certainty as to what extent this alarming chain of events will spread, and if we're the cause of it. But it seems to be pretty obvious to me that our pollution is deeply affecting the eco-system. Better be safe than sorry, and just be carefuL. now about this documentary, well... i personally don't give a flying fuck who made it... i just think it's a good bell to ring, even if half of the data is correct! It is still good to shake people up, and start respecting nature. I reckon the message is a positive one. |
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sounds like you need to address the issues of over-population, a need for a cleaner alternative energy as the oil is just slowly draining away, and be able to change big business overnight. good luck with that. |
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are you implying that the problem is to big to solve and thus isn't worth the time or effort to solve? how constructive. |
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is there something inthere that isn't common knowledge yet? |
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i just was reading the other day about how half of the worlds living creatures are expected to die out this century. lets just sit back, do nothing, and see if thats true. |
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it regretfully isnt to a lot of people |
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you'll feeL well sorry in the aftermath if it turns out to be true |
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and somehow its harmful to try to be cleaner? thats retarded. |
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i'll just blame the (enter opposing political party) like these fucks do. |
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rad smiles |
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sorry |
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don't be :) |
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in my ignorant stupid american mindset, i thought people who thought global warming was a sham were americans only. now im even more depressed about it. |
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ahhh... no use being depressed about it mate! there's only so much one can do, the rest is up to time & the amount of global effort that's put into it !!! keep them rad smiles going! :) |
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search 'global dimming' in google video. |
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i actually agree with the comments on there...... B-O-R-I-N-G!!! |
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again... B-O-R-I-N-G... |
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Total crap man!!! come up with something more substantial next time :) |
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do you actually watch that crap? they say virtually nothing in 8 minutes. unbelieveable. saying so much and yet so little. |
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Ok, for all those who doubt What exactly is it you're doubting? Are you doubting that greenhouse gases work the way they supposedly do (retaining heat)? Are you doubting how large our emissions are? What are you doubting? Just the entire theory, as a whole, but not its parts? Also, for manicminer: You can't be too sure that you aren't actually eating food that's been flown in from everywhere else... sadly, it seems processing the raw materials in other countries may sometimes be more economically sound for the industry, meaning that, for instance, some of the fish you get in the stores here in norway, while having been caught in norway, has been flown to china (!), processed and flown back because that cost less money than processing it right here. It's also quite hard finding out exactly which fish has been through this and which hasn't, so a protest by not buying it is equally hard. |
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and thecrimsonguard: The use of the words "half witted" just shows exactly which scientists you've been talking to. Try finding some decent ones. |
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Also, what would it actually take to convince you guys? The actual catastrophy? |
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I got 2 minutes in and stopped. I have no idea what Global Dimming is, but to be blunt, if I have to sit through minutes of 2 dorks who don't seem to agree on anything or of rehearsed it at all, I can live without knowing about it. Drunken Mastah: Nah, irrefutable proof that humans, a) Are a significant factor in global warming and b) That it would not happen anyway (within say 50-100 years) would be perfectly adequate. I am familiar with (and agree, to an extent) with the Precautionary Principle that manic miner discussed. My problem with it is this: We can dramatically change our way of life, greatly inconveniencing ourselves and still make very little difference. I don't mean "we as individuals don't count", I don't agree with that. I mean the proportion of what we as individuals are responsible for only reduces marginally. I remember reading an article in the Guardian a while back about a journo who, for a fairly significant period of time (it was at least for 6 months), tried to not cause any environmental impact. He threw himself into it wholeheartedly (he was in favour of this sort of change- he wasn't out to prove how hard it was), amongst other things, he made sure all his food was grown locally, was fair traded, organic, etc. sold his family's cars, used public transport (which he could as he lived in London, most places in the UK it's not a viable option). He conceded that it had been very hard and the extra effort had taken up a great deal of his free time (cycling instead of driving to the shops), he had a lot less disposable income and that for many people in the country, it simply would not be possible to do everything to the extent he did (they may live too far from shops etc.). In spite of all this, he seemed happy. How much did he reduce his impact? 24%. So, what else should he have done? What's he to do with the other 76%?! |
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People would be more prepared to say, "okay, maybe it won't happen, but lets act like it will anyway, just in case" if: a) What was required of you was practically possible, without throwing yourself back to the dark ages (in which case, you might as well wait for the cataclysm and at least delay it by a few years). b) Their actions would dramatically reduce the human effect (even if that turned out to only be a tiny fraction) on global warming. I'd like to ask a question. Irrespective of what you think causes global warming, if this disaster happens, what exactly do you think will happen? Will we change overnight and all live on small self sufficient farms powered by renewable energy? Will governments tolerate the inevitable disolution of their power that the closing of an age of technology would bring? I think we're more likely to (at least in the first decade of things getting really bad) likely to see isolationism in the few regions which will remain habitable, a largely closed door to immigrant into them and business carrying on as normal, albeit with a lot more money being spent on renewable energy-powered air conditioning and research into the alternatives. Meanwhile, in hotter bits of the world, people die in droves while the governments in cooler regions make token (but ultimately meaningless) gestures of aid. I know the latter scenario is a great deal more bleak, but I also think it's a lot more likely. That is, if this disaster ever occurs. |
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*immigration |
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nobody's saying we've all got to go 100% green. just make small changes to our lives. the funny thing is that if gamblers like yourself who play the devil's advocate prevail, then those of us left will certainly have to go 100% green, and society as a whole will take a huge step back. I really don't see the point of being a skeptic when there's such a huge body of evidence to assert the contrary. It's exactly the same as being a Creationist in today's world. |
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You make me sound like some ogre who rapes mother earth with scant regard for the consequences. :) I love nature and I am actually fairly green. I have done woodland conservation work since I was a child. I recycle, repair and re-use wherever possible (in the gap since my last post I was actually working a bit of metal in my garage to make it fit a new purpose, so I wouldn't need to buy a ready made mount for my GPS). All the food in our house is organic (admittedly this is more the gf's doing than mine), most of it is fair traded too. We run things like the washing machine/bread maker on timers overnight. Only this month, I switched to a water meter. Most of my colleagues drive big cars on business trips, whereas I ride a (as small as you can realistically use for distance riding) motorbike. I walk for short errands into town (1-2 miles), rather than go by car. It's more usual for me to stay in the UK than go abroad for holidays. Last time I did that "How many earths would it take to support your lifestyle for everyone on earth" tests I got 1.7 earths, which is pretty good for someone living in the developed west. I'm also actually really interested in renewable energy and conceed that eventually petrol will run out. I still can't help but feel that in spite of all this, it doesn't make much difference compared to all the other things that cause global warming and that if it's going to happen, it will anyway. |
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Well, first of all you won't ever get irrefutable proof.. that's an impossibility. You will, however, get, as we now have, adequate proof (a correlation between observed increased pollution and observed increased global average temperature plus more extreme abnormal weather) and currently accepted by the majority of scientists in the field. Now, about that reporter. He didn't actually do all he could, so that 24% reduction isn't the full story. That's what he could do with today's situation. What needs to be done, what needs to be changed, isn't just your own habits, but also that of the government, so to speak. You need political guidelines and engagement in the market to encourage less pollution and sanction more pollution. In other words, you need more restrictions and taxes on the bad stuff and better subsidies for the good stuff. If you complain about bla bla it's all a conspiracy to make money off taxes, remember that tax money doesn't just go into a huge black hole, it comes out on the other side. Now, to change policy, you need lots of people in a group doing a collective effort to make the politicians change their policy. If that reporter had gone more out of his way to do something like that, I'm sure he could easily have cut his impact by much more, and it would be easier for everyone to do the same. |
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Nothing will happen over night. The richest countries will have enough money and time to build barriers to keep the rising sea level at bay. USA may even manage to build that hair brained outer space sun screen some maniac proposed. The problem with this is that it just shows a lack of will to take responsibility; "oh, we can just fix it afterwards, so let's keep up damaging it now." There's also the problem of all the poor countries like the Maldives (highest point is 2,3m above sea level, and they don't have any actual natural resources) which will be swallowed up by the sea. |
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I think anyone who doesn't believe in global warming and that it has a negative effect on the environment is really kind of ignorant. I'm not trying to start anything here, but really, it doesn't take a genious to realize that pollution does harm to the environment. Correct me if I'm wrong, because it's been a while since I watched that movie, but pollution makes the ozone layer thicker isn't that right? Now that's not too hard to believe because it makes sense that chemicals pumped into the air might react with other natural chemicals there. If the ozone layer is thicker, then less heat from the sun will get out, which means the temperature will rise. If the temperatures rise then the polar ice caps will melt. Obviously that's a bad thing. I dunno, I guess I just don't see what reason anyone has to make this shit up. I guess these environmental groups are trying to make money off it some how?.................... |
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That's also a problem, as implied by me in #02067784: People buy some organic food and recycle some things and think they're green, think they're "doing all they can" while "all you can" involves quite a bit more. |
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In that scenario, I'm alright. Even though I live on the coast I bought a house above the maximum possible sea level. I'd also welcome a few degrees more heat to extend my blissful weeknight bbqs down the beach and swimming in the sea by a couple of weeks. What was the downside again? Mwahaha! |
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I also think you, as too many others, think it's harder to accomplish anything than it actually is, and thus it becomes so: As I said, you need lots of people to change things, but if everyone locks themselves up at home in a corner going "I can't do anything anyway," it does indeed get harder to do this. |
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That story you mention doesn't really have any point as far as I'm concerned. Obviously one person is not going to dramatically have an effect on global warming, but does that mean people should stop trying to encourage people to reduce their own emissions? The whole point of focusing on the individual is that eventually if millions of people take the effort of the man you mentioned, maybe there will be a significant effect. The main problem is changing the whole culture and infrastructure in my opinion. Everything is based around stuff which polutes, be it cars, machinery, energy sources, whatever. Obviously if one person tries to go against that it will be difficult, but the whole point is to try and change that whole culture and get things moving towards more environmentally friendly methods on a large scale. |
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I agree. Like I said, the whole point of focusing on the individual is not really that one person can dramatically effect this, but that if millions of individuals listen and change their own lifestyle then there will be a dramatic effect. People need to ignore the fact that they themselves can't make an impact and just change things anyway. Then once a lot of people start doing this we'll see results. |
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That was for ceri, not funkmaster. |
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I was a bit late there, but your reply is good. |
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and here's a graph (in norwegian). It has some of the doomsday predictions you're requesting, and is simplified for laymen. Mellomistid, varm = Middle ice age, hot Global temperatur = you'll figure it out Istid, kald = Ice age, cold Over naturlig nivå = Above natural level År før nåtid = Years before now I dag = Today År i fremtid = Years in the future Menneskeskapt drivhuseffekt = Human greenhouse effect Terskel for bredannelse = Threshold for the creation of glaciers Naturlig temperaturutvikling = Natural temperature development The prophetic parts of this is the 1000 years into the future prediction. The peak that first goes up and goes down again is because they're calculating in the final end of all fossil fuels (which doesn't necessarily mean the end of pollution, but they're assuming we haven't found more shit to burn by then.. or we've died). The natural temperature development is probably derived from those observations one has made about naturally occurring phenomena, like distance to the sun plus knowledge of past variations, which occur with a certain regularity. |
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