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Well, I don't think so really, but Brian Eno does. I was reading an interview with him from a couple of years ago in one of my mates' music technology mags. (Sorry, I don't think it's online) Anyway, it struck a chord with me. His basic argument was: anyone with a modicum of taste can knock up a decent sounding loop in Reason/Fruity Loops or whatever, and then build up a lacklustre track around it. He compared it to how something like perfume is marketed now: you find the demographic, consider the pricing, draw up an image, then the LAST thing you actually decide is what it smells like. You're building a track up around a weak idea, a mere shell of a song. Whereas, if you where stuck in front of a say...a piano, you would have to work out the fundamentals of a tune before you even got to the rest of it. The work would have to be strong enough on it's own merits before you got into all the production, effects, various sonic tarting-up procedures. It made me think as well about the roots of techno and how those early producers had to work with very limited equipment. Your limitations become fuel for your creativity. Eno talked a lot in the article about how he still mucked about with his trusty old Yamaha DX-7 and how he really loved to get into it's awkward and antiquated programming system. It's a compelling argument, and I'm starting to think the democracy of software isn't such a great thing after all, I mean imagine working for Warp records and having to come into the office to be greeted by a huge pile of 74 minute long CDs of obscure "IDM" noodling. Yikes. |
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yes and no |
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no, yes and yes |
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eno is an old bitter fart though |
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no, software represents other kind of limitations. yes, democracy (software or whatever) sucks. yes, obscure idm noodling sucks. |
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Actually, that DOES strike a chord in me - Beforewhen I made music, I didn't have my electric piano, and found it much harder to come up with musical ideas, whereas, ever since I first learnt the piano about 15 years ago, I would sit for hours improvising and refining melodies and phrases... so i think he's talking a lot of sense there. maybe. |
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i trigger all sorts of soft-synths from my midi keyboard (an ensoniq esq-1 from the 80s) and occasionally program sounds from the machine itself. i can see where Eno is coming from but I can see the counter-arguments brewing yes/no from me |
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yeah, it's quite interesting... I made a lot of tracks when I only had one synth and now when my options and possibilities are e n d l e s s there's not much interesting music made, not any uninteresting music either... :/ ...limitations and awkard synthprogramming is something I'm actually considering again sometimes... (a few tools and 16*2 line displays says more than enough, ok?) |
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i respect his opinion very much but it seems he's just bitter coz 'anyone can make electronic music these days' |
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he's got a point IF thats the way you work. at college we learnt you can write music from the bottom up (starting with a beat/sample etc), middle out (a chord progression) or top down (melody line). theres no reason you cant write music in any of these ways using a piece of computer software with a midi keyboard. its entirely up to the user. |
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what about actually using it all for what its worth to you and not trying to speak up about THE ONLY SOLUTION TO GOOD MUSIC FOR EVERYONE. what sounds good sounds good. |
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If you treat the software as a tool to get what you want, it can't be bad. If you just use it to do the work for you, it probably is. below, fig 1, me using Acid to get what I want. |
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That reminds of an avant-garde musical score... |
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Eno is up his own ass and this it utter bullshit. IDM though.. |
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For a man that got a lot of mileage out of just fucking about with new technology, he's being a bit twatty. And he's been going on about Perfume since forever. |
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IDM for the sake of IDM is up its own asshole IDM for the sake of respecting electronic roots is where it's at |
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Exactly. And how is making your own decent sounding "loop" (melody) on a piano and then fleshing it out into a track any better than doing it in say fruityloops. Except for the obvious fact that it requires that you're actually able to play the piano and write down your work in notations. But being able to mix, produce and master music is a skill in just the same way.. |
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Agree 100%. And it doesn't matter where you start, or how you go about creating a track, providing you are behind it. Some of my best tracks started from a simple drum loop or sample in an easy-to-use sequencer, and some of my worst when I decided to "sit down" and compose it first on the piano. You can't generalize in these things. |
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Oh, these threads. Well what can you say. It's like a friend of ours who's in theatre design and every time we watch a movie with her she talks during the movie about technical details. I mean, shut up you cunt. I don't care how it's made. I want to sit back and enjoy it if it's any good. People have too much fucking free time and everyone's a musician who produces tiny amounts of feeble music and vast quantities of criticism of their professional betters. I think we need to bring back crushing poverty and child labor. |
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Yeah, that's very true. Pretentiousness really does kill me :p |
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prresenting yourr best trrack prrobably isn't a good arrgument against eno. |
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that's to CS2x CS2x CS2x CS2x |
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Everybody has the right to their own opinion though. Talking during a movie is just outright rude though :( |
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Remove whichever of the "though's" that you desire in this reply :D |
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the firrst one. |
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Yeah, I prefer that one as well. |
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Well how's about that! Consensus on music and grammar. How often does that happen, eh? |
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Haha, good times indeed! |
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In the manner that big blockbuster movies strip out bits of reviews for their marketing, I'm taking |
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i get too fustrated on how my tunes will sound through a sub nowadays. making the actual music is the easiest thing in the world. |
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this is a tough argument really... could bring loads of things up. but at the end of the day, its all about imagination and stretching the possibilities of what you can do with what you have. I personally think, as long as every note of your tune is being played on a piano, synth, KEYS, etc... + put effort, and most importantly feelings into what you're doing. = it's as much of a "tune" as any. examples... -simplest of lullabies on a xylophone -a basic guitar tune with simple lyrics for everyone to sing at the end of the day... brian eno's comment is quite pretentious... and yet.... a bird singing could bring way more than some of brian eno's tunes, the bird's gotta be good though i have to admit :) |
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hehh... even without keys, piano, or keyboard.... it's all about what emotions you can pass through, if you select your sounds well enough... a simple boom bim could be terrific. oh i forgot that chap's name.. but the cyclist in the serie "spaced" is a good example... he feels the groove with the beebing sound of when a traffic light turns green (for the pedestrians)... : D but then again, that's a serie. hehe |
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And he's constantly on speed |
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Starting with a piano or other basic hardware? That's horrible. I won't even mention software. If one truly wants respect they've got to start out with the basic elements of the earth. Build your own hardware out of rocks and sticks refined to the top of your ability into elegant musical apperatus. When you've finished and made your song, destroy it and start over. Better learn to make some sort of recording device. Starting with a piano? That's cheating. |
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the thing about being limited with your tools is right on |
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What's the furthest you've got with your limited tool? |
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ask your mom |
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HAH! |
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I don't think you can try to be creative. I do think having good tools that help you have fun in order to let it flow ou tof you helps you meet your best potential. |
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THose early techno guys had 808's, 303's, 606's. All fun things to play with. |
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thing is, you can say this about just about anything (there are people making crap in all directions), and you can be damned sure that if hardware was as easy to get as programs (download, crack), you'd have a shitload of people with hardware doing what he's accusing people with software of doing (I mean, just look at the immense amount of boy room rock bands; they use nothing but hardware, but that doesn't improve their music). however, in between all those crappy computer artists, you occasionally find gems, and the same goes for hardware. this forum has a few gems. |
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i hate posh fancy expensive software, i just want some sequencer shit that i can drag shit into and order it and just fucking play the shit. Audacity is the only non-sequencer software i use, everything else is hardware based. |
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It strikes a chord with me. I have been actually sitting down with a guitar or at the piano and writing like that. As a result the tracks i write are definately more cohesive than anything i have done so far. It takes longer but is way more satisfying to me. |
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Ah, the curse of Dubstep... I write the main loop of about 80% of my stuff on paper before I go near the computer/hardware these days. I can't say it makes much difference. It just means I can compose during meetings with a pad and a pen (when using a laptop with headphones on might be a bit indiscreet). |
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"Fucking play the shit"? No wonder our once great nation is going down the lav. Stop swearing. Naughty boy. |
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Great idea! I should work on an algorithm to convert Manager Speak acronyms into beat notation. It would be an.. (brace yourself) ...algorhythm! |
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Nice. :) I've actually devise a form of beat notation that just looks like idle doodling. For some reason, doodling is tolerated, but actively doing something else (like composing) is considered more rude. |
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so what if you write a song on the piano, then record it using software, then add to it using soft synths etc, then decide the piano doesn't sound right and replace that with something software based... this argument isn't about music software, it's about people with no talent. |
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No, no, no...you would not be using the sound of a piano, it's just an instrument you could use to get a good foundation for all your fancy VSTs. One approach could be writing a MIDI file and then building up your "lush" sounds later. |
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