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 (nobody)...and 388 guests Last 5 registered Oplandisks nothingstar N_loop yipe foxtrotromeo Browse members... |
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People nowadays have all sorts of weird attitudes towards politicians that they wouldn't even consider having towards other people.. one good example is on that is very prominent here in norway: if you're a politician, you aren't allowed to be wrong ever, and if you somehow still manage to be wrong (in predictions, promises, etc), you have to angle your reply so that you weren't wrong, but that the point of view circumstances force you to adopt after things have gone wrong is a point of view that follows naturally from your original point of view.. it's no wonder you don't get politicians going "oh, sorry, no, I was wrong when I said that thing earlier.. this is going to take a while longer and some more money [because some of our calculations were wrong]"; people just get angry at a politician if he does that and they "loose confidence" in him and his party and rather choose to vote for a party they don't like bla bla bla. how do you see politicians and how do you react when, for instance, a politician said "this road will be finished in 2006" and then in 2006 he says "due to [...] the completion of the road will be in 2008"? What does it take for you to loose confidence in a politician? |
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Never trust 'em. No loose of confidence. For me, politicians nowdays, are inherently bad/wrong. The concept itself. They're just a product. A thing. With PR. Marketing. The difference is that you don't buy pepsi or coke, you vote this or that. |
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well, yes, to a certain degree, but do you think it's a part of some circular motion? because of the higher focus on people over political programs, a party and its leader need to be more and more showy and because they are pushin one person up front like a pop star people become more focused on the person which leads the party to make more of a showcase of him, etc. |
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It's not that different from everyday relations. If it's a person you're opposed to, you're much more inclined to point out any mistake that person is making. You're much more lenient towards people you like. People are more selfish and short-sighted these days, and want instant gratification instead of parties and politicians working for sustainable growth and long-term goals. IT'S BEEN TWO YEARS, WHERE'S MY SIX-LANE MOTORWAY? |
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yeah, but people do it with politicians they voted for (they must've liked them)... and yeah the adhd culture demands instant satisfaction and frp will give it to you until they actually have to do something. |
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Well, imagine that applied to philosophy, Aristotel was wrong because he was gay. Nietzche was crazy as shit. Heidegger was a nazi. Descartes played with a doll as if it was his daughter. All they said would be ignored. Falatia ad hominem! There would be nothing left to discuss, as nowdays in politics. Political programs? All are the same program. In the broad spectre of political thoughts, possibilities, structures... all there’s left is right, center and left of the same mediocre idea of capitalist democracy. I fuckin’ hate democracy, so I’m out of the game. |
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yeah, that's why it's silly to focus so much on people politicians should be faceless/anonymous. maybe the burka would be good for this purpose? |
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Perhaps it's a backlash from the campaign messages they have to use to gain power. In order to win an election they have to communicate the message "we will fix everything", and then people will get disappointed since they cannot possibly achieve all that. On the other hand, if they make more sober and realistic promises they propably won't win at all. |
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all political "advertising" should be handled by one single politically independent agency who had strict guidelines on what could be on flyers, posters, etc.. only pure text, black on white, with information about the partys political program. |
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Maybe not having to delegate the power in someone else. But people is too lazy. They preffer to throw a piece of paper in a box every four years. That's what I can't call political action. It's just a show. |
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That would make the election campaigns more equal and fair, but the public engagement would dwindle as most people (including me) would never bother to read those programs. |
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What he said. Sadly, in the UK at least, most voters are too stupid, apathetic, lazy and/or uninterested to grasp and understand the main parties policies. They predominantly vote for one of three reasons: 1. who comes across as the best presented/most smooth in their delivery, 2. the image/history of a given party, 3. how recently the opposition were in power for a long spell and they got sick of them and vote the other lot in for a change. The majority of the UK voting populace has conservative views (and I'm not talking a 40% majority, I mean more than the other parties combined). A recent study gave people a brief outline of each parties policies (and a few extra erroneous, but not unbelievable 'parties' ones on them too) without giving the name of the party away. I forget the exact figure, but over 60% said the conservative's policy was best. The control group had the same, but with the parties name on the papers. In the control group, the response was something like 20%. When challenged about this difference, the control group didn't admit that they'd not picked conservative because they didn't like the parties past/the leader/whatever. They maintained it was because they liked labour's policies more. This would suggest people don't even realise how much their voting is influenced by advertising and spin. A cynic might opine that it'd be interesting to see what would happen if you gave them say, conservatives policies with labour's name on the sheet.... A lot of lifelong conservatives are leaving the party because they think Cameron isn't conservative enough and they disagree with him. Sadly, it doesn't matter, if he gets in, it won't be because they like the conservatives, it'll be because he's more charismatic than bLiar's succesor. DM: re advertising. I agree. I'd like to minimise the amount they're on TV and stick to the facts on what they propose to do. |
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that doesn't matter, actually it would just work out so that if you don't get in there and don't vote, etc, you're putting your fate in the hands of the people who do. you'd also be forfeiting your rights to complain about anything politicial until you started participating. |
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A valid point. RE: the motorways. My dad reckons the reason the roads will never get sorted is that no politician will raise taxes to pay for the increase in infrastructure as the project wouldn't be finished during their term and they wouldn't be remembered for starting the wonderfully successful road project, but for raising taxes to pay for it. The next lot in power would inevitably claim the credit for it. As you say, it's the populace's demand for instant gratification that is to blame as much as the politicians themselves. |
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What about turning up, but spoiling your ballet paper? Surely that is a political act? |
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why raise general taxes to pay for motorways, though? just put out some toll booths and raise the price on the "you're allowed to drive" thingie you have to put on your license plate (I don't know if they have those in england, but they do here). |
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"you'd also be forfeiting your rights to complain about anything politicial until you started participating." Wrong. It's the game itself I complain about. You don't fight religion going to church. -Bakunin- |
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I vote blank or, if I believe there to be some danger of some more unwanted party than any of the others (I mostly don't agree enough with any one party to be able to vote for them.. on an unofficial test thingie my highest score of agreeance with a party was 18%), I vote for the least unwanted party, but this isn't because I like this party, it is because I want to stop the more unwanted parties. I don't know what spoiling your ballet paper means, though... |
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yes, but this was in the more hypothetical situation outlined with sclah up there... |
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that's silly people are silly there should be some "voting aptitude" test where you, if you were voting for some party also had to take a multiple choice test where your vote would be disregarded if it showed you didn't actually know what you were voting for. or maybe even better.. you didn't get to actually vote for a party, you just marked on what you thought was good and then your vote would go to the party that best matched your choices... |
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my attitude is not understable now.but i post... and wish a nice thread |
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Part of the reason our economy is suffering is that the transport infrastructure here is so dire/expensive. It's in the interests of everyone that a better road network is established, even non-motorists. Motorists already pay 10x what is spent on road maintenance on road tax, so a system of payage (like the french/swiss) wouldn't really be fair. Again, duty on fuel is already incredibly high, so adding to that would further increase the costs for business. Our government is looking at payage though (indeed, we already have one section of motorway that is). The reason I'm opposed to it is that they don't see it as simply a means of paying for the roads; you know that the bulk of the money would go back into the tax man's coffers. In preperation for this, they're proposing lowering country lanes (which are currently 60) to 40mph. They claim this is for safety, but the real reason is revenue generation. Effectively, by artificially slowing down the alternative roads you force people to go by motorway (a trip I can do in 3 hours on the motorway, already takes about 5 hours cross-country, this would up it to almost seven). Of course, once they're on the motorway they will charge you, arguing "well, if you don't want to pay, go by the backroads" when in reality, it's just not viable. My view of payage in this country is that it should be like the M6 toll road (the one we already have); you pay more to get somewhere a bit quicker. It shouldn't be a case that you have to pay to get somewhere at all... Personally, I think it's insane that a country as small and densely popular as the UK doesn't have a fast, cheap and reliable train network, including bullet trains connecting north with south and east with west. |
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Spoiling your ballot is basically turning up to vote, but then either ripping up, graffiting, etc. the voting slip. Your presence is recorded and it shows that you didn't not vote out of laziness, but that you genuinely cannot bring yourself to vote for any party. People who advocate that you should be fined for not voting often suggest there should be a "none" box/that you should still be allowed to spoil the ballot. |
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The last idea sounds fun, but then every party would tailor their standpoints according to the expected poll results. Thus every party would be the same. How about a political model without parties or representatives, where every topic is voted on separately?. Then all the results are run through a "compromise generator" which determines the guidelines for the next four years. |
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BTW, I'm definitively voting for Internet at the next election |
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I agree on trains, but I don't agree that non drivers should pay for the roads. they could rather pay for trains which don't pollute. drivers should pay as punishment for pollution. |
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we'd have to get rid of parties, then, wouldn't we? I've had an idea before about removing the large parties that have plans for this and that, and putting in their stead a system where one "party" only had one cause and you could vote for several "parties" (causes) per election. it'd require people to be less stupid, though. |
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"I for one believe that if you give people a thorough understanding of what confronts them and the basic causes that produce it, they'll create their own program, and when the people create a program, you get action." -Malcolm X- |
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that's not where the problem is today.. the problem lies in getting people to care enough to actually get an understanding on their own. |
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Okay, how about this as an alternative? Non-motorists don't pay for roads, 33% of the revenue from motorists goes on the roads, 33% goes on the environment to offset the damage motoring does, 33% goes to the government's coffers? RE: The environmental effect of (modern) cars really is negligible, anyway. It's industry that generates most pollution and industry in the 3rd world at that... Re: Sclah's "no party" idea. Yes, I also think this would be best. With the internet/digital TV you could have a "vote from home" on all issues that were important to you. This wouldn't mean you had to spend all day every day going over every minor point of policy, more that you could pick and choose which policies you wanted to see. Sort of like a "my favourites". EG, say you're a single mother who is nurse, you could set it to flag up items being debated that concern education, child care, the NHS (health service) and benefits. On the down side, it could mean the unemployed/students (who don't pay much tax) would have more of a say that people who work, on account of the people who work wouldn't have as much time to vote. You'd also need some sort of system that stopped policies everyone felt strongly about, getting in by stealth (eg getting an obscure law passed, proposing it's for one thing, then using it to force policy in another respect). |
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They don't care enough because after gettin that understanding of their own, the rules of the game clearly state that ALL you can do is delegate in someone else's idea. Why bother geting your own one? |
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they can't say "oh, sorry, no, I was wrong when I said that thing earlier.. this is going to take a while longer and some more money [because some of our calculations were wrong]" because then they're seen as liars. which they're already seen as. they're regarded as gangsters here. and they say things like "sorry, we got it wrong, it'll take a bit of extra cash" all the fucking time here. search google news for the dublin port tunnel. i think they've upped the price of construction on that at least 5 or 6 times. |
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that actually sounds like a good idea. and of course industries that pollute should be fined as well, but that doesn't diminish the fact that cars do pollute. also, on the no parties idea.. that would also require people to stop being so stupid and selfish.. that's how it is now.. if you're a motorist and rich, you vote right because that's what benefits you.. this goes for almost all people; mothers vote for those who promise free kindergarden and better schools (of course this should be voted for, but not because you, personally, is a mother/father, but rather because it is something that is desireable in itself because it makes things easier and better with next to no harm coming to anyone). |
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yeah, but I think they should be allowed to do this. they should, of course, spend a bit more time on their research before actually making a promise, but I see more and more that people are getting angry at politicians because of some trouble no-one could've predicted hindering them from fulfilling some promise. |
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and another point is that people are angry at the politicians. They seem to forget that they actually do want what the politicians are trying to accomplish (their program) even though it may take a bit longer to accomplish it and then they change allegiances because the politician didn't fulfil the promise right away; they abandon their political wants because they lost faith in a person. |
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things are obviously different in norway, but it appears to me that you've a very naive and excessively trusting attitude towards politicians. |
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I don't care for the profession "politician" as it is now, but people need to stop demonising them when they make normal mistakes. of course there are cases in which they are to blame, but it isn't so that they have the blame in all cases. |
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i don't have any attitude towards them..it pisses me off when they're not direct as it's obvious they've got something to hide and i love to laugh when i listen to those shows where they confront left and right wingers. they never say anything but it's funny to see two adults fighting in sort of polite manner. |
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The media are also to blame for this. They'll take any issue and inflate it to a sensation in order to sell more papers. It's like, "this politician got a speeding ticket for driving 20 km/h above the speed limit, can we really trust him to be in charge of things?" |
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yeah, I know there was this "case" where they somehow got it to sound bad that the money you pay in the toll thingie (I don't know if that's the proper word.. it's those things you pay to go through because you're using the road, etc) when you drive through doesn't actually go straight into new roads, but rather to pay for the loan the government made to build the road you are paying for, and they were interviewing people who were outraged at this; "no, the money shouldn't go to paying some bank, but rather to building new roads!!!" Are they really so stupid they don't realise that the money used to build the road they are driving on right now came from a loan and that this loan needs to be repaid? it's just silly how they angle stuff sometimes.. there was also this thing where the government had proposed, as I did up there, that the money to pay for a new road somewhere should come from the road taxes and tollbooths, and all the drivers they interviewed were outraged because "why should we [the drivers] be the only ones to pay?!" (if he had heard himself and what he actually said he'd think himself to be stupid.. "why shouldn't the people who walk pay for the roads we drive on?!") |
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Yes, I didn't see why one of our politicians' alcohol problem meant he should have been kicked out. The fact that he functioned for years without it being a problem suggests it didn't impair his ability to do his job. Of course, the media went mad and his own party kicked him out. |
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future elections will have swimsuit, evening gown and talent parts |
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Lovely debate guys. Politicians can get fucked. |
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Wait. I take that back. I don't have an opinion. |
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I vote for the one on the far left and the one second from the right. |
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i'm pretty cynical towards upper level politicians. seems like the whole system is so rotten that if you want to make it to the level of like a congressman or governor or whatever you pretty much have to be willing to play dirty or you will be defeated by someone who is. ...which means, we basically end up with only scumbags at the top. |
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word! I also put in a vote for the asian. |
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yeah, but you're american.. you are at the stage where the word politics no longer bears any resemblance to what it means elsewhere. |
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don't get me wrong, the rest of the world is getting there, but you're at the cutting edge. |
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i'm not entirely sure i understand what you mean |
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