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i was just thinking about this.. do you think someone with a regular job can create proper art? not because of lack of time or something, but simply because you see world/life different when you don't have to deal with something as pointless and stupid as your job and 'creative' society. |
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dealing with something pointless and stupid is pretty inspiring |
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i suppose so, but it shades ones view on things too i would think..hmm |
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I've seen some of my friends completely change after getting steady jobs. They're just drones now. |
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i suppose it depends on what your job is then. by job do you mean career, like a lawyer or a real estate agent or something like working in a call center or waitering (is that a word?)? I guess i can't really see Nancy Lawyer going home after a long day of briefing and litigation and then heading home to create some phat beatz on her laptop. it probably depends on how engaged you are in your job. |
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My friends do labour work, so they're just too exhausted to make music now, to do anything infact. its sleep work eat sleep work eat etc.. Sad.. |
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oh right. yeah, i meant a career sort of thing there. dunno any people who'd do mydonalds sort of jobs all their lifes. that's more of a job you get at highschool/uni i suppose..but yeah, i guess if you have a job that caries none or mionimal responsibility, you can make proper art on the side. |
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How do you not do Mcdonalds jobs all your life if you are complete shit at math? Im asking cause I'm total shit at math and anything like it. |
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depends on motivation and discipline, i guess. but people persuiing (what's the word?) a career in the corporate world are already performing another kind of art, which is pretty involving all by itself (=draining all their creativity/energy). |
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I have a 40 hour a week job. I haven't been able to work on music as much, but it takes some getting used to. When I first started working full time, I worked on music about an hour a week maximum. After I got used to it, and it became more of a regular thing, I began to work on music more. I do about two hours a night on work nights, and six hours a day on weekends. I don't have time to do anything else. I see most of my friends about once every two months or so, but I spend a lot of time with my girlfriend. Its the way I like to be. |
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95% of the world are shit at math. the other 5% are being made fun of, unless they invent stuff which makes the lives of the 95% much easier. if you're shit at math, but a good communicator (tend to be mutually exclusive) you can do MUCH better than mopping the floor at McD's. business needs more good communicators than people who know the math thing. if only to compensate the stereotypical inability to communicate of the math-heads. |
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i dont know where this is coming from. of course you can create art and have a serious job. why not? im never more creative than when im busy. im studying up to ten hours a day at the moment and ive made three tracks in a week, compared to about 2 in the last year. it makes your approach more relaxed, if you try too hard you always get nowhere, or make something really generic or a ripoff. i dont understand why responsibility in other areas has any bearing on making art, do you think all great artists just focused on that their whole life? |
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i guess i made it appear much more black/white than intended. of course it's healthy to focus on other things. but it depends on what you want to achieve, i guess. for instance in the context of sports, a sporter could focus on more disciplines, but by doing that his achievements on each individual discipline will be less than optimal. generallly speaking, of course. in many olympic disciplines, specializing is a necessity for winning. and in the context of jobs, it acquires huge amounts of energy to being or becoming a CEO. energy which could not be put in the 'becoming a serious artist' area. the amount of time and energy is limited, and studies have shown that the level of achievement is a function of the amount of energy that went into it (more energy = higher achievement). again, this is generally speaking. it's not some dogma. there are exceptions. there allways are. but in general...etc |
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ok, oyur post wasn't directed at a particular person, but i nevertheless took it that way. nevermind :s |
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youre looking at it as though to make 'proper art' as tolst put it, you have to 'become a serious artist' somehow, but i dont think there is any threshold level of seriousness that makes someone's art more valid. in fact people who are not involved with the society of people doing similar art will be the most original |
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hanal makes good art |
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i reckon you're right - artistic people from outside the art community would probably have different influences. their work would probably be quite different and unconventional, i.e. better in my mind |
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in fact people who are not involved with the society of people doing similar art will be the most original to me, this proves my point: people who are not involved with (or in) anything else will be the most original. i admit this is dancing with logic. but it's just that art is such a difficult concept. Far more difficult than sports for instance. Whether or not someone is a good/proper runner is measurable, but what makes a good artist? The amount of money he makes? The size of his fanbase? The grades he gets from the critics? There probably isn't a clearcut answer, and imo there doesn't need to be. If you look at all the 'great' artists and the areas they focus(sed) on in their lives, I think it's more common that these people are almost obsessive, even self-destructive, when it comes to putting energy in one specific area. And even when they're focussing on something else, most of the time it's meant as instrumental for that one big thing. reading tolst's original post however, we're a bit on a tangent here... |
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ehm...i'm on a tangent :S |
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if your shit at math then try and find something your into and work at that. im shit a math but enjoy webdesign so thats what i do and study all the time, even in my spare time. the internet is a plentiful resource - loads of tutorials on programs, or howto's etc. for almost anything your into. also, its a process - you never know everything your into, you just produce the best you can at any time, but continuously get inspired and learn. |
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if you do enough drugs on your sparetime you would be allright. seriously i also think there are lots of examples of people having success in several ways in their lifes, both with careers and art. it's possible. not having a job and just "waste" time and hanging on messageboards and such is great but isn't necessarily inspiring. |
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it is if your shit at math and reading this post. |
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i'm not shit at math but i really didn't read the whole thread, but replied to topic and the initial post. |
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your sweet then. |
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now were getting into what makes good art which is a horrible debate every time it happens. i dont think qualifications or measurements are applicable to art in any sense, I think the successfulness is defined by parameters set out by the artist, which can include critical acclaim. I think the 'great artists' tend to be people who can fullfil a certain criteria; a large quantity of work seems to be one of them, the kind of work that fits in a gallery nicely. I don't know where I'm going with this anymore. Im just thinking about Einstein and the whole story of him coming up with all his clever stuff while doing some shit day job. If someone in that situation had painted Guernica instead would it have been as great, or famous? Theres too much context in art. I dunno, like whatever, and stuff |
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do you think someone with a regular job can create proper art? the answer is yes. there's no debate. it's been done by most great artists. |
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"Proper" art? |
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as in "not dirty", or "clean" |
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i think godel is the only one here who probably knows what i meant, at least to a point :) i didn't mean someone can't make art because job takes too much of their time, nor because it exaust them too much..but if they do both, they are either schizophrenic, live in denial or don't care about their job one bit, but i suppose this later is a bit difficult if not impossible nowdays..ofcourse there are some proffesions that allow one to be both, a career person and an artist at the same time and be good at both. |
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:-) another factor i thought you could be aiming at, is personality. if there were certain personality traits required to be an artist, could a person with this personality traits have a normal career? or something along those lines. in case you are wondering, studies have shown that people who are really/extremely good at a particular field (sports, science or art) tend to have either extreme personality traits (whatever those might be), or are in the extreme middle of the personality matrix (extremely normal). the rest of the crowd (>65% of the population) are "normal" people. and "normal" could mean being good at multiple disciplines at the same time. |
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that doesn't surprise me really..it probably explains what i meant to some poit too. there must ne something different about them i suppose :) |
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the real artist can deal with anything and situation |
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haha |
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teh kung-fu mastah artist! |
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It seems a lot of people, including artists themselves, have this notion that you must have a really eccentric and extravagant personality in order to be a great artist. So a lot of artists will exaggerate those personality traits to fit in with that stereotype. |
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wait, are you talking about britney spears? |
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I can only speak for myself ofcourse, but from my perspective when writing - to write anything that comes close to possibly being good takes a lot of time. which means I need a lot of time, which means there is less time for another job. and I do get the schizoid-thing you're referring to, Goran - for me it is really hard to switch between projects. each project has its own mindset. at the moment I'm very busy, I'm translating a play into English, writing an essay and I also have to write a play of my own. it takes a lot of time and energy having to constantly switch between these projects. so in my case I do think it would be best if it was the main thing I'd be doing, simply because it would fit my personal process and it would be the best circumstances for me to write something that isn't shit. :) |
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well, that's the time arrangement aspect. it works for some, and doesn't work for others i suppose. havin to do more stuff at once is stressing and takes a lot of effort. it's surely one of the bigger factors, but what i was thinking is that you just can't combine common society pattern (job unfortunatelly being the biggest part of it) and artistic expression because these two things couldn't be more appart. ofcourse there's art and there's art.. :) |
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why is art so separate from a 'common society pattern'? why would it be separate from anything? I don't think I see your point at all t-dog |
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i agree with dannn_ on this one toysolsyoedtoyed. |
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I think you might have a romantic view of The Artist, as in: the individualist that places himself outside of normal society. sure, there are artists like that, but there are many more not like it. fact is, making any art is just bloody hard work, if you want to make something good that is. or at least that's my own experience and the experience of the people I'm involved with. |
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because you can't find sense in both i suppose..dunno, just thoughts going through my head really.. i suppose i have a bit of romantic view on this matter, but it makes perfect sense to me. i just can see how someone can accept both, i just can't see it as genuine art, more like faking it maybe. then again art is a very very broad term so i suppose it's hard to define :) |
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When you really think about it, working a job is no different than going to the store to buy a canvas, stretching the canvas, mixing paint, cleaning your brushes, etc.. It may not 'directly' lead to the work of art, but it makes that artwork possible.. working to support creativity is in a way similar to cleaning your brushes, etc... you don't need to clean them to be an artist, it has no artistic relevance, but is a required chore if that hobby is to continue. Most of the time it is just neccesity.. If a musican's instrument is broken and the musician can't afford a replacement and stops playing, the general public assumes they are not a musician, and eventually it becomes true. They might have potential, but the actual execution of their creativity often largely depends on non-artistic motivation. Also, if an artist works a non-artist job they can gain insight into the average person's life, as most people's lives largely consist of working. they can bring that into their artwork often, and it would seem to me that inspiration/meaning behind the art would likely be more universal than the usual 24/7 artiste's 'art for art sake' mentality. |
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dedication is the key |
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Its really a matter of time for me. See I'm drawing and writting when I can and lately (because of my job) I didnt have the time to get involved. But its not a matter of different point of view in my case, because all people at my jobs got mostly the same vision as me about world and capitalism and stuff. So its really time and tired bodyfor me (I do regret it but thats the way it is) :) |
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"working to support creativity is in a way similar to cleaning your brushes, etc..." depends on what sort of work it is i'd say. |
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Well, I wouldn't use that metaphor. I think its more basic. You are working to afford your art. I find myself more inspired with gear. I learn gear very quickly, and get bored with things faster than most. In order for me to practice my art, I need to spend a lot of money on it to keep me interested. Its like I am buying really expensive paints for my art, but instead of using a canvas, I am making a canvas out of pre-existing layers of paint that I laid down on a canvas that has disappeared. |
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art for me was a lifestyle. now my job is a lifestyle, working 12 hour shifts. which is fine because its a job i really like. i dont disagree with the role of the professional artist, but unfortunately in my case art was a gap filler, something to give meaning to my life, rather than any real sort of reaching out and contributing to the world. i watched some cabaret voltaire videos on youtube last night and they kicked my ass. brought me back to where i wanted to be with art years ago, but didnt quite have the committment to follow up. |
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i think i love you : ) |
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dont take me so serious btw.if you dont want to : ) |
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