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what is it where is it |
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it sucks that in the chaos this universe is made up of, our self concepts are also chaotic |
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Just to let you in on a little secret... IT DOESN'T EXIST! We're just a bundle of senses. |
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Wait, was this a music question? |
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not a music question, nah |
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a.-the soul IS and nothing more. b.-your mind can not know,dont waste time. c.-for a good answer for the two questions i recommend to you meditate,in silence. everyday almost 30 minutes. |
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If the soul doesn't exist then it's easy to point out why people want one. It's a part of you that doesn't ever change. No matter how drastically your life changes, you still have that concept to grasp on. I guess some probably look at it as the glue that sticks all your memories together. |
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... |
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maybe he knows! |
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On the underside of your foot |
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james brown is such a mothufuckin mac daddy |
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The soul is a misinterpretation of the self. There is no need to give spiritual weight to an entity within the ether when you can simply have a self which is something like a soul but without the religious connotations. When you die you die, that doesn't destroy any self identity and it doesn't resign us to the belief that we are simple chemical reactions, senses and what not. All these things merely add up to a totality that you can call a self or soul if you wish to be theistic about it. Thats my view anyhow! Read Hegel or Sartre or even Heidegger. |
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nice one, taff. |
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Falito-Sorry, but that's a bunch of New Age-y nonsense... Cygnus-I don't know, maybe you should read Hume or somebody like that. It sounds like maybe you need some kind of "spiritual connection" to your being...if so, maybe skip Hume... But this is a game of semantics, don't confuse the "soul" for something corporeal. If it's something you can touch then it's not a soul. The Big Bang isn't God. |
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falito said what he had to say, i dont think it's right to call it nonsense. i find it impossible to connect 'spiritually', i do not even know what it means anymore. i've come to a point in my life where im walking around looking at everything and it's literally like watching, marbles. youve ever tossed a bunch of marbles down a slope or a hill? or rolled a bunch of dice, im just seeing dice being rolled. you might spark a conversation with a girl across the bar from you, but if a song comes on the jukebox that you dont like you might walk over there to change it first, because it's so fucking bad. by the time you're finished doing that, the girl you were going to talk to, is gone. you and that girl might've been a perfect match for eachother and would've had a 'perfect' relationship after hitting it off with eachother almost immediately. and that's because of a thousand different factors that played into the situation. how would that band have known that skipping those musical lessons at the age of 9 would have caused a poor dude to miss out on the relationship of his life. you get what im saying? how can you say that all of this shit is more than a basement project.. just a bunch of chemical reactions. yeah its stupid to dwell on it, but jesus christ, urban society is ALL OF THAT at a rapid fire rate, and for the love of god, it is ridiculous. |
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The soul is a misinterpretation of the self. There is no need to give spiritual weight to an entity within the ether when you can simply have a self which is something like a soul but without the religious connotations. When you die you die, that doesn't destroy any self identity and it doesn't resign us to the belief that we are simple chemical reactions, senses and what not. All these things merely add up to a totality that you can call a self or soul if you wish to be theistic about it. that's what im saying. people assign spiritual weight to things to do just that, make them more weighty. what i find strange is it happens more with kids. kids are absolutely more spiritual than kids, they believe in 'luck' and all kinds of special fortunes. it kidn of dies as they get older. why is that? modern society is probably fucking us up. there is just too. much. shit. too fast. i feel perhaps that if the human race has souls, that in urban areas, the soul just can't keep up with the body, because of it's rapid-fire rate of alteration. |
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isn't the big bang a theory? it's the demonstrative theory but is there any way to be sure of it? no. therefore can one be critisized for saying they don't believe in the big bang? just a thought i guess |
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MY BALLS ARE QUITE ITCHY. |
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a.-the soul IS and nothing more. if it is possible to lose ones self identity then what does that mean for the soul. does that mean that the soul is lost b.-your mind can not know,dont waste time. my mind cannot know where my soul is, does my soul know where i am? do you think that it is possible for things in this realm to come in the way of me and my soul, if i have one? can two people connect if they do not have self identities? what if they do not have souls? is a self identity prerequisite for meaningful communication? |
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MY BALLS ARE QUITE ITCHY. take a shower and wash all of the bacteria |
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"i feel perhaps that if the human race has souls, that in urban areas, the soul just can't keep up with the body, because of it's rapid-fire rate of alteration. " HUH? You seem to be misplacing alot of the blame onto other things. Saying someone missed out on the girl of thier dreams because they changed a song that happened to be on is utter crap, you totally bypassed any idea of choice and responsibility. You choose to stand up and change the song, you are not forced, the circumstance arises form the choice not the choice from teh circumstance. If that was really the case no one would be responsible for any action and thus we would simply spiral into non existence. Throwing marbles and autonomous actions are completly different things. If you genuinly feel that is the case then nothing should worry you because you are responsible for nothing and no action is yours to take. |
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Um, well, I think what you're trying to do--what we all do--is create the narrative of our life, the mind is just a story we tell ourselves and yours isn't working out the way you want it (maybe). And this reality is just a bunch sequences stemming from a single cause. The band didn't know shit about their shittyness and the consequences of that shittyness, what ever started everything is what led up to your miss-out. Falito-Sorry, Cygnus is right, I was rude. |
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SERIOUSLY MAN. THINK I MIGHT HAVE CAUGHT SOMETHING. |
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on the underside of your foot do you know how many nerve endings are on that area of your body? more than in your penis. that's why so many people are foot fetishists. it's not because they are 'sexually deviant' or 'weird'. |
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i need to sleep up, will get back in here in a few hours |
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The soul is a misinterpretation of the self well, that isn't entirely true, now, is it? The soul is a perfectly valid concept and it's not even unlikely compared to some of the other theories (like reductionist neurophilosophy). I'm kind of a (non-reductionist) functionalist, but I feel it's a bit more complex than that.. externalism and existentialist thinking is included in my picture of it. |
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Like i say, its my view, of course you can opt for dualism and ascribe a soul but in my mind its a mistake. I am not suggesting neurophilosophy (or at least i think I'm not as i know little about it). I don't think the self is dictated by its parts but infact dictates the parts themselves (if that makes any sense). I am not a fan of functionalism because i don't think functionalism can work in an aesthist system. I don't think its possible to ascribe function without a artisan to initiate that function. |
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neurophilosophy is the stuff that shit ass churchland couple advocate. functionalism works perfectly in an atheist system.. I should know as I really am atheist, and that's where the externalism comes in. I don't believe it's so that we're born with the functions (nor that any function is unvariably bound to a particular part of the brain). the "functions" (or function) is something we learn how to perform through the world around us, though it rarely is explicit; one of the earliest things we learn is how things affect other things and from that comes reasoning and deduction which we use in basic forms in connecting (and distinguishing) things around us, but no-one tells us how to do that.. and, no, I don't know how we do the initial "thinking" that allows us to recognise causal links like that, but just because I don't know (and no-one probably ever will) doesn't make it not true. |
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I;m not suggesting that, but if our function develops soley in an individualistic sense aren't we self defining? and if we are self defining doesnt that kind of neuter any need for functionalism. If the world around us defines our function then are we not falling back into the "marbles down a slope" thing? (I'm not saying that you are suggesting that I'm just asking). It's like the example of the paper knife (letter opener). An artisan would not create one by accident it would be created with the lette ropening function in mind. It can be said that external circumstances dictate that function, for instance things such as sharpness, the physical qualities of paper etc. However the function still is external to the paper knife itself and predefined. Without a knowledge of letter opening functions then it would never become a letter opener. Maybe I am misreading you. You're obviously more adept to philosophy than I am, it just somehow feels wrong to suggest function in an atheistic sense. If we are self defining then function cannot preceed existence, at least it seems that way to me. I hope i made at elast a little bit of sense there. ;) |
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oh those philos... |
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one of the earliest things we learn is how things affect other things and from that comes reasoning and deduction which we use in basic forms in connecting (and distinguishing) things around us, but no-one tells us how to do that.. I'll contraplex that and move it towards morality, because that could be how it forms. For instance, the whole basis of good and evil, that could just be a sense of peace where symbion can be attained on both sides. But when you dig deeper into it, some look towards hereditary metempsychosis where we inherit an inner sense of soul and will through genetic memory mapping of past reasonings and deductions. I really have no idea what I'm saying. Chalk it up to mentalese. I remember the last time I was on shrooms I vowed never to get into discussions like these again. lol |
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haha i love your avatar! TODAY IS THE DAY! |
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maybe next time.. |
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not individualistic: society plays a big role in this, but that's only later (when we start to grasp the connections and basics of communication. and the world around us defines it, yes, but I mentioned existentialist thinking earlier. choice and responsibility. these are a sort of function, as we learn how to choose and how to take responsibility, but we don't learn that we should always choose the same (a good analogy is the learning vs memorizing thing. we learn, we don't memorize). and I'm not talking function as the whole human has its function, I was more talking about the brain.. I may be misreading you here, but it seems you're talking about the first.. in the functionalist view of the mind, the mind is a function of the brain that cannot be reduced. people commonly use a sort of computer analogy in that a computer program or computing function can be performed on lots of different computers with different internal structures. the difference between the computers and the mind is that with computers you can probably figure out (or know) what parts does what, but that's because we created it, as you say, with the function we want it to have. with the human brain, no-one created it, nor does it have any sort of thought behind it meaning it isn't structured to do one thing; we can learn how to do just about anything that is physically and cognitively possible (though what defines the limits for cognitive potential is vague). I don't think I'm more adept to philosophy than you, it's just I've had a bit of philosophy of the mind (next semester is existentialism! I can't wait!). |
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I thought it was the 26th today and it was all passed. OMG hold onto something tight! |
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I don't think DNA carries memories contrary to popular animé belief. DNA controls certain physical aspects of the body, but you don't inherit your parents' beliefs in any other way than that you are brought up by them and they are a part of the society that affects you. |
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Well not like actual memory imprints, but definitely something archaic. The way babies just know that a mothers tit is their source of food, or baby crabs just know which way to go when they hatch. Something along those lines. |
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that's more like instinct which is separate from the mind and more physical.. we aren't fully rational beings from birth... |
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Instinct.. now that's something to think about. |
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I did philosophy of mind part 1 and hated it (science of mind was fun with searles chinese room experiment etc). I did self and authenticity lat term (basically its existentialism) and it fucking rules. Hegel, Heidegger and Sartre are the only philosophers i have read that ahve not only made perfect sense to me but made sense in a practical manner. Be warned alot of people misunderstand Hegel and i found that classes involving Hegel meant loads of stupid people banging on about animal rights "why is human consciousness seperate form animal consciousness BLAH BLAH". It got right on my tits. as to the whole debate i think we are actually saying the same things but in very polarized way's. When i think of functionalism i think more of aristotles function arguement. I'm not sure I'd agree with saying choice and responsibilitie are functions but that is kind of irrelavant to the overall arguement. |
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the chinese room argument is good, yeah, but it didn't really entertain me for long as it just illustrates a good point and all "replies" miss the point. I think I'll be onto sartre and kierkegaard.. and probably heidegger too ("wie steht es um dieses nichts" wasn't that him?).. hegel was a bit boring when I had about him.. zeitgeist and all that. yeah, it has nothing to do with aristotle. aristotles version of function is what we're meant to do, but I'm not talking about anything like that. I'm just talking about mind and brain. you can't separate them, and you can't reduce one to the other; the mind is a function of the brain. |
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Heidegger was great i especially like his things on being towards death. Hegel is great, the actual text is hard as hell though if you're new to it, i would suggest the routledge guide. It made it far clearer for me and i began to really like Hegel, it also helped because when you start getting the jist of his ideas it becomes much easier to read. Yeah so we do agree function wise hehe. |
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I love anyone who can piss off logical positivists! |
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I've got this feeling that it belongs in the same catagory as knowledge, numbers, information, etc... I think the physical is a medium through which such things are expressed. |
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Cygnus--when i say soul IS i say it cause you ask: "WHAT IS?" and soul is not what,cause IS. tha mind can not understand things without size or colour or tickets. SOUL IS ETERNITY,NO TIME NO SPACE where is? same answer If you WANT to UNDERSTAND your SOUL you GOT to UNDERSTAND who is you. and you is you:) is weird to explain this cause everyone have an education and way of see reality so,if we TALK about the SOUL... it will take for long...but it we feel our soul its telepathic i congratulate to you for fire the mind of people on this board to search inside they and not outside. the answer to all is INside us,not OUTside...but listening to aphex twin,you will fell better and connected. |
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this board must have a picture... we must fight against ignorance! |
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sure, if you want to discredit someone, you can just call them "new age." what falito is saying is not new. the soul has no location in space or time. experience yourself in an egoless state, and you'll come closer to understanding. right now you're looking for a quiet melody in a wall of raging static. these are my two cents. |
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the soul sucks. its just a metaphor for your personality |
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no the personality is only a part of what "soul" denotes. the soul doesn't even need to be religious, non-spatial/temporal or supernatural. in that case it denotes both your rational and your non-rational self. in the cases where it is a religous concept it is most often something that can outlive your physical body either as a separate entity or something that joins a larger thing. in older times, it was what made men (and sometimes animals) move; the origin of their actions. |
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I prefer to talk about the mind in cases like these (and when talking about what I think about it), though, 'cause there's always some science wanker who starts crying when someone says "soul." |
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