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Jack most of your statements are addressed in this interview: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/wtc/collapse.html |
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"Apparently any conclusion that doesn't lead to some ludicrious far flung conspiracy will always leave a segment of people unsatisfied. It seems to me your problem is less about how long the rubble was left around than it is about the rational conclusions the engineers reached. " i think you're trying to a paint a very black and white picture of the situation. I watched the documentary you speak of, and at the time it seemed very convincing. This was until i looked at blueprints and pictures of the WTC during construction. The pictures and video diagrams they show on the Nova special are inaccurate. The filmakers show that the WTC has http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1540000/images/_1540044_world very weak central support columns here - _trade_structure300.gif when in fact the actual support columns looked like this http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0112/Eagar/fig3.gif It's possible the documentary makers misrepresented the actual scientific investigation that took place. Since this is such a glaring inconsistency, I dont think you should keep bringing up as incontravertible evidence. if you want evidence of why the freefall collapse is impossible from a plane crash alone, look up the laws of physics, namely the laws of gravity. |
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Well how is the situation not black and white? Either the planes flow by Al Queda terrorists crashing into the buildings caused the towers to collapse or as the conspiracy theorists and "Loose Change" accuse, there was some controlled demolition as part of a scheme involving our government to defraud an insurance company of what was it, $7 billion dollars? Where is the middle ground? |
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The the first "correct" diagram is represented in this video: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/minutes/q_2907.html |
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The middle ground was a bit between the towers that got covered in crap. |
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"Well how is the situation not black and white? Either the planes flow by Al Queda terrorists crashing into the buildings caused the towers to collapse or as the conspiracy theorists and "Loose Change" accuse, there was some controlled demolition as part of a scheme involving our government to defraud an insurance company of what was it, $7 billion dollars? Where is the middle ground? " sorry i forgot we were talking about Loose change here. I agree they make some pretty unfounded and wild accusations in this film. However it does not negate the fact that there are glaring inconsistencies in the official story (either version 1- absolutely didnt see it coming, or version 2- we were inompetent and our agencies couldnt communicate) that need to be addressed. Even if you dont take into account how the tower fell as if it was in a vaccuum, The 9/11 comission report did not address several key issues that include - -the chief of the Pakistani ISI (equivlent of our CIA) wire transferred 100,000 dollars to Muhammad ata (the main hijacker in 9/11) a week before 9/11. On the morning of 9/11 this same man was eating breakfast with George Tenant, the director of the CIA at the time. Since this event there has been zero mention of the Pakistani ISI being involved in the attacks. Lieutenant-General Mahmoud Ahmad had never been repremanded, questioned, let along extradited to the US to be put on trial for his crimes. Our country is now great friends with pakistan and do not question their leadership. -The 9/11 comission reported omitted almost every reference to high level government officials and high profile individuals being warned not to fly on the day of 9/11. -The morning of 9/11, NORAD was running a drill involving a mock hijacked passenger aircraft being used as a missle to hit the WTC, pentagon, and sears tower. No mention of this has been made in the 9/11 report. This completely http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/04/20040413-20 contradicts the quote by Bush (found here = .html) ". |
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(continued from below) .....http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/04/200404 13-20.html) ". We knew he had designs on us, we knew he hated us. But there was a -- nobody in our government, at least, and I don't think the prior government, could envision flying airplanes into buildings on such a massive scale." -why has nobody been fired from NORAD or the FAA for making such a massive fumble of allowing a 30 minute delay from the moment they knew for sure the plane was hijacked to scrambling fighter jets. I mean why did the 9/11 comission give them a freepass. Its as if either organization got a slap on the wrist and nothing else. When they exsist for the sole purpose of protecting our skies. In the very moment when we needed them most, they *beep* up... BAD |
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"http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/minutes/q_2907.html" this documentary made a lot of sense to me when i saw it, and it still does. But it does not answer 2 questions involving the collapse that i still have -are they trying to say that the force of the floors falling down on top of eachother caused the steel and concrete to powderize and accumulate into a dust clowed that traveled as far as new jersey. -several rescue workers were treated for lung problems following the attacks. The docotrs examined them and found not only plastic and concrete particles in their lungs, but human bone powder. Its very hard to understand for me how floors squashing on top of eachother could cause someones body to be vaporized to the point of someone else being able to breath their bone powder. -Why does it seem like there is almost no resistence when the floors are freefalling. mathematically it took only 1 second longer for the building to collapse entirely, than it would if you dropped the equivelent mass (of all the upper floors) straight down in a vaccuum. Does this mere 1 second account for the resistence of the below floors? |
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If you take all the inconsistencies you cite what do you belive they point or lead to? Are you trying to imply that the government was invovled or that they were incompetent? I certainly agree they were utterly incompetent in every way leading up to the attacks. "Our country is now great friends with pakistan and do not question their leadership." Actually this isn't true, the public face of our relationship with Pakistan is very different from the actual more complicated relationship. Look at the case of Dr. Khan for instance. Obviously Pakistans cooperation is desperately needed if we are to round up Bin Laden and the other Al Queda in the tribal areas which leads the current administration to constantly paint the relationship between the two countries as rosy when the truth is very different. |
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"Where is the middle ground? " sorry for posting so many times, but for me the middle ground is having a shit load of unanswered questions involving 911 the 9/11 comission did not address any of the issues i mentioned above. I've read the entire report and was shocked about how many glaring omissions there were. It was a "bi-partisan" comission, and both sides of it had reasons to come out making Bush and Clinton look good and non-negligent. I dont have any direct evidence to claim that this is part of some grand conspiracy. I do however have evidence that both official story version 1 & 2 are highly improbable taking into account the evidence the goverment has released. |
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" Obviously Pakistans cooperation is desperately needed if we are to round up Bin Laden and the other Al Queda in the tribal areas which leads the current administration to constantly paint the relationship between the two countries as rosy when the truth is very different. " i agree with this, but still why hasnt this Pakistani general been arrested. He doesnt even work for the ISI anymore! He is the only directy *named* co-conspirator besides bin laden and zawahari in the information that has been made public. You'd think they'd at least mention this in the 9/11 comission report right? "If you take all the inconsistencies you cite what do you belive they point or lead to? Are you trying to imply that the government was invovled or that they were incompetent? I certainly agree they were utterly incompetent in every way leading up to the attacks. " i am not implying either, but if you follow the imcopetence theory there are still many glaring anomolies. i am not claiming to know what happened, i am just questioning the official story. |
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"i am not implying either, but if you follow the imcopetence theory there are still many glaring anomolies. i am not claiming to know what happened, i am just questioning the official story. " When you say "official story" though, are you referring to the claim that Al Queda conducted the attacks? I think the problem with this and many other conspiracy theories involving the government is that the conspirists give them far too much credit. Either they are incompetent and their incompetence allowed the attacks to take place, or they are so competent and resourceful that they have people beliving that Al Queda is responsible. Given the adminstrations track record doesn't the first option seem far far more likely? |
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" Given the adminstrations track record" can you give some examples please |
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" Given the adminstrations track record" can you give some examples please> Of the Bush administrations incompetence? Is that really necessary? |
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its a pretty straightforward question. |
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though there is good evidence to back the plans of this administration and those that are behind it (see PNAC documents), speculating on their reasons and insanity is a distraction. the facts are the facts - we have been lied to about 9/11 - the official story is a total falsehood and anyone supporting the their lies is helping to guide us into a terrifying future. |
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i would be interested to see someone explain these (although it seems i have killed the thread) - -the chief of the Pakistani ISI (equivlent of our CIA) wire transferred 100,000 dollars to Muhammad ata (the main hijacker in 9/11) a week before 9/11. On the morning of 9/11 this same man was eating breakfast with George Tenant, the director of the CIA at the time. Since this event there has been zero mention of the Pakistani ISI being involved in the attacks. Lieutenant-General Mahmoud Ahmad had never been repremanded, questioned, let along extradited to the US to be put on trial for his crimes. -The 9/11 comission reported omitted almost every reference to high level government officials and high profile individuals being warned not to fly on the day of 9/11. -The morning of 9/11, NORAD was running a drill involving a mock hijacked passenger aircraft being used as a missle to hit the WTC, pentagon, and sears tower. No mention of this has been made in the 9/11 report. This completely contradicts the quote by Bush "We knew he had designs on us, we knew he hated us. But there was a -- nobody in our government, at least, and I don't think the prior government, could envision flying airplanes into buildings on such a massive scale." about the collapse -are they trying to say that the force of the floors falling down on top of eachother caused the steel and concrete to powderize and accumulate into a dust clowed that traveled as far as new jersey. -Why does it seem like there is almost no resistence when the floors are freefalling. mathematically it took only 1 second longer for the building to collapse entirely, than it would if you dropped the equivelent mass (of all the upper floors) straight down in a vaccuum. Does this mere 1 second account for the resistence of the below floors? |
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I watched this yesterday and it makes me even more curious about that documentary of which the firefighters had an opportunity to watch it before getting released. Does anyone know what the name of this documetary/movie is? |
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you mean that (fiction) movie united 93? |
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Don't know what the name is.. someone mentioned it to me. Is United 93 new? |
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yea, it's about the plane that didn't crash into the whitehouse it was screened for people that were like involved |
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Ok, thanks man! I have to see that. |
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:) i think it's more about what happened on that plane, like heroic stuff, than about conspiracy |
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do we have xltronicers discussing civil engineering types? please, post your degree and projects so i can try and understand just what you know and just what you copy/paste seriously... im sure there's a few on this board...probably the ones who arent typing.. |
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Are you trying to defend something? |
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YEAH, BUT IF YOU WATCH THAT LOOSE CHANGE VIDEO BECAUSE I MEAN IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM, AM I RYTE? M I RYTE?!?!?! maybe you should put some of this exhaustive investigative into your career. |
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how could you rig up something that is more powerful than the impact of a 747 in a building with about 1500 employees without being noticed? |
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by being an internet-fucking-moron who fails to have any real life experience outside of the ctrl+c ctrl+v world |
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When you can't be proved right in your "outside of the ctrl+c ctrl+v world" are you tending to scream? |
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no, i don't get worked up in real life, hence i take it out here i very rarely get "mad" in real life it sucks, actually. |
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but there are some retarded-fucking arguements here |
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that vanity fair article is pretty good |
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but that loose change viewers guide is patronizing, silly and mostly off target (even more than loose change itself). |
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Loose change is alright, but know whats better? Alex Jones. 9/11 Road to Tyranny. or Police State..... better. |
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If there actually were a conspiracy surrounding 9-11, the conspirators would have no better friends than whackjobs promoting completely insane ideas alongside legitimate questions about the events, which become discredited by their proximity to insanity. Alex Jones? Hey, throw David Icke into the mix too. Maybe the lizards planted thermite charges in the towers. Oh and about that viewer's guide: See how tall and skinny everything is? The aspect ratio is just as it appears in the video. The towers here have a 1:10 width to height ratio, making them appear to be about 2,100 feet tall (they were about 1,365 feet tall). A minor point, but I find it interesting that the video begins with a distortion of reality. I find it interesting that the guy who wrote this is a knucklewalking retard. |
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bit nit picky there. |
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ps: well, click the links at the bottom if you don't like reading maddox. |
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question: was Operation Northwood or Operation Northoods mentioned at any point in this film? that's pretty much all it took to sell me on this also, the company CDI? mentioned at all? the google video link is down.. is there any other youtube-type of site that is hosting this at the moment? |
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Like I said Loose Change is good, but its nowhere near the best on this particular subject. |
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USA is A-OK! |
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"providing evidence from an open source encyclopedia is probably the least reliable source of information" Yet you won't allow anyone sources of information from any type of media source either, or any publicly funded program... so basically, the only reliable sources of facts are nutjobs with conspiracy theory sites who operate completely privately and without any merit whatsoever? I see... well in that case, you win teh internets debating chamionship, my good man!!! |
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USA didn't even land on the moon! it was actually a sound stage in a New Jersy deli. they made the space suit out of fish bowls and butcher aprons. they had plenty of cheese too at this deli so it was no problem making it look like a real moon. duh! |
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By the way, I'll humor you and watch this video once it finishes downloading, but I have a feeling it's going to be mostly a ridiculous waste of time. |
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i linked to loose change some time ago in another thread.. its a great doc if not a little biased. i cannot stand people who gobble up the official story, its so scarry that people will believe the lies. big: so if conspiricay is a poor man's explaination is a government inquest a rich man's explaination? *please excuse my typing.. |
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i'm sorry, when did people start "gobbl[ing] up" official stories? all of a sudden everyone believes everything their government tells them? when did this EVER happen? |
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Maddox |
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of course i don't believe the whole story, but i definitely don't believe the US shot a missile at the pentagon and are keeping all the passengers of flight 77 quiet or something. ext: day, somewhere in the desert FBI agent: "hey some planes just crashed into the WTC." Agent Mulder: "lets radio our UFO friends and tell them to crash their flying saucer into the pentagon. they owe us one anyway for covering up their snafu in area 61." FBI agent: "don't you mean area 51?" Agent Mulder: "exactly..." |
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