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Taxidermist
from Black Grass on 2006-01-12 06:16 [#01816937]
Points: 9958 Status: Lurker | Followup to hma: #01816935
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Its pretty funny.
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Drunken Mastah
from OPPERKLASSESVIN!!! (Norway) on 2006-01-12 06:17 [#01816939]
Points: 35867 Status: Lurker | Followup to unabomber: #01816933 | Show recordbag
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for the love of god! I'm just one person!
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unabomber
from Palma de Mallorca (Spain) on 2006-01-12 06:18 [#01816941]
Points: 3756 Status: Regular
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Are you REALLY sure?
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hma
from real life on 2006-01-12 06:19 [#01816942]
Points: 528 Status: Lurker | Followup to Taxidermist: #01816937
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ok i`m grabbin it
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Drunken Mastah
from OPPERKLASSESVIN!!! (Norway) on 2006-01-12 06:21 [#01816946]
Points: 35867 Status: Lurker | Show recordbag
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well, ok, twelve, but still...
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QRDL
from Poland on 2006-01-12 06:22 [#01816949]
Points: 2838 Status: Lurker | Followup to hma: #01816942
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wow, that's quite convenient
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unabomber
from Palma de Mallorca (Spain) on 2006-01-12 06:23 [#01816950]
Points: 3756 Status: Regular
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Confess: Twelve is right... but not humans... You are twelve monkeys!!
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Ceri JC
from Jefferson City (United States) on 2006-01-12 06:24 [#01816951]
Points: 23533 Status: Moderator | Followup to Taxidermist: #01816912 | Show recordbag
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Ker-ching!
That's my other stock argument, that I forgot to bring out this time. Even people in absolute poverty are completely free to say, "Sod this (society) for a game of cricket, I'm off to fend for myself" and go off into the wilderness and live off the land. Even in a massively overcrowded place like the UK there's enough space to do this. Even if you can't afford a train ticket to north Wales/Scotland, you can hike. Admittedly if you build some massive manor house, people who own the land (the government if it's a national park) will turn up and ask questions, but if it's a shack somewhere remote, will people really bother? 'Course not. Sure, if you aren't fit, or reasonably intelligent, or able bodied, or skilled in survival, you'll probably die, but that would happen in "nature" anyway. I really don't understand why more homeless people don't do this, particularly as something like 1/4 of them are ex-forces.
The real reason most people don't, is that they actually get more from society than they give and it suits them to stay in it. That might sound mathematically incorrect, how can people from the full spectrum of society get more out that they put in? The reason is that we're greater than the sum of our parts. The idea is that we all do something we're good at, which we can do quickly and easily, in exchange for something someone else can do. By and large a capitalistic society works on this principle. I'm a bit of a jack of all trades, but I freely admit there's no way my amateur spannering is as good as that of a trained mechanic, my reasonable cooking isn't on par with that of a chef, I'm not as fit anymore as a labourer. When I want/need any of these things done well, or even if I just can't afford the time to do them, I pay someone else to do it.
Nacmat, no I've not been to Cuba. I have a slight interest in it and have considered it for a holiday destination once or twice. Everyone I know who has been has cited the poverty you describe as a reason why it's a bad
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QRDL
from Poland on 2006-01-12 06:25 [#01816952]
Points: 2838 Status: Lurker | Followup to hma: #01816942
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And Futurama is often extremely funny, but requires longer getting into. Any Futurama is better than nowadays Simpsons, but it is no match for some of the golden episodes from the past.
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Drunken Mastah
from OPPERKLASSESVIN!!! (Norway) on 2006-01-12 06:26 [#01816953]
Points: 35867 Status: Lurker | Show recordbag
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I am in fact twelve husky dogs.
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QRDL
from Poland on 2006-01-12 06:28 [#01816955]
Points: 2838 Status: Lurker | Followup to Ceri JC: #01816951
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People nowadays don't appreciate what they actually get from modern society. That why THE END is upon.
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hma
from real life on 2006-01-12 06:31 [#01816957]
Points: 528 Status: Lurker | Followup to QRDL: #01816952
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thanks for the info! i really like simpsons so i probably wont be dissapointed. will check out first episode :)
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Ezkerraldean
from the lowest common denominator (United Kingdom) on 2006-01-12 06:32 [#01816958]
Points: 5733 Status: Addict
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society sux. i get nothing from it, not as a whole anyway. i'd rather abandon it and live on a small island with a group of friends than live a normal boring suburban 9-5 life.
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hma
from real life on 2006-01-12 06:45 [#01816964]
Points: 528 Status: Lurker
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i live in former ussr country and i must say that i have different feelings about freedom of speech and absence of censorship. i cant stand so much things that i see in press and on tv... fuck all reality shows about plastic surgery, wife swap, superstars in two weeks and so on and and. sometimes i wonder are these negative effects of capitalism inevitable. cause it ends up that all people is thinking the same and have the same opinions even more than in communism with all the censorship.
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Ceri JC
from Jefferson City (United States) on 2006-01-12 06:45 [#01816965]
Points: 23533 Status: Moderator | Followup to QRDL: #01816955 | Show recordbag
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I know. Look around us. Do you really think if you were off fending for yourself you'd have enough free time to waste hours on a messageboard? Think you'd of mined metal, refined it, made a pc out of it. Set up a communications network over which you can send your messages? Perhaps you would of made a car? The list goes on and on... Reckon your precious IDM would exist? Think you'd make a TB-303? Literature? Film? Beer? Pretty much everything you enjoy in your life is only possible because of society and you play a part, however small, in it.
Taxi: Yep, I class Britain as a liberal democracy with socialistic tendencies. People who moan about it being oppressive, etc. crack me up. Go and live under a dictator in some crackpot little country for a year then come back and tell me if you still think Britain is so bad.
"The misconception of people who have unique tastes, is that they seem to think that everybody wants what
they want." This is key to any of the alternative policies failings. We call them a "vocal minority" for a reason. A lot of them are just self-deluding and think we want the same as them. However, the ones that really get my back up are those who think they know better than me and that they're more intelligent than I am (they usually aren't).
I agree it can be frustrating how slow change is in coming, but we can bring it about. In a democracy, if enough people wanted it, we could bring about a communistic state, through democratic channels in under 5 years. If a left wing party got in (hate to piss on your bonfire, but Blair's lot aren't socialists), you can guarantee the right wing lot would moderate their policies to be nearer the status quo and similarly an even more left wing party would spring up. If it's what people wanted they could vote increasingly left wing parties in for several elections on the trot. Of course, most people are better off as it is, which is why we never stray too far from the current situation.
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unabomber
from Palma de Mallorca (Spain) on 2006-01-12 06:46 [#01816966]
Points: 3756 Status: Regular
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"cause it ends up that all people is thinking the same and have the same opinions even more than in communism
with all the censorship"
YOU HIT THE NAIL IN THE HEAD
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hma
from real life on 2006-01-12 06:53 [#01816971]
Points: 528 Status: Lurker
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maybe its some kind of societie`s evolution of from individualism to collectivism. humans will end up living as bees.
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Ceri JC
from Jefferson City (United States) on 2006-01-12 07:02 [#01816975]
Points: 23533 Status: Moderator | Followup to hma: #01816964 | Show recordbag
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I agree that some of those things are wrong/repelent and a lot of people cite all the decadence and depression etc. in America as an example of why capitalism is bad.
I'd argue that censorship isn't the answer and that people would be like this anyway, it's just that capitalism grants them the freedom/money to do this and hence we only see it in capitalistic countries. For example, I can't see you getting a Michael Jackson in Cuba, because Castro's health service wouldn't do expensive cosmetic surgery like he has had, if the state was footing the bill (and rightly so).
Besides, the reason we see those people in the news is because they're different from the norm. I, for example, am riotously happy as it stands. I have few concerns about security/my health. I always have enough to eat. I am able to take almost 50% of my waking hours as recreation (a lot of people really don't realise the value of this; work 12 hour+ days and saturday mornings for a few weeks and you'll soon appreciate it). Of course I have occassional money worries, but cutting out luxuries and working overtime almost always solves that. On top of this, I am able to divert enough funds/time to study a degree part time to better myself, ensuring a better future for myself (not to mention benefiting society in the process).
I realise there are some people in capitalistic society (although they really are a minority), who are paid far more than they're actually worth to society (pop stars, politicians, company directors, etc.) The ideal solution would be something like Parecon, but I can't see that happening any time soon. Before we blame all that on the wealthy though, I'd also actually say a lot of low level jobs like store clerks/call centre workers are paid too much for what they do too. Is it right that someone who works as a nurse has the same salary as someone who stacks shelves at B&Q?
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big
from lsg on 2006-01-12 07:04 [#01816977]
Points: 23729 Status: Lurker | Followup to hma: #01816964 | Show recordbag
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does not compute it's about the terror from the government against it's citizens
shitty tv shows are just that and you can turn it off
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Ceri JC
from Jefferson City (United States) on 2006-01-12 07:39 [#01816988]
Points: 23533 Status: Moderator | Followup to unabomber: #01816966 | Show recordbag
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I'd argue if people allow themselves to be lead that way it's because they're weak and lack imagination. The failing is with the individuals, not the society that allows it. I don't go out of my way to be "alternative", as actively doing so is pointless, cringe-inducing and usually indicative of a fairly boring person, but just by doing things I enjoy, I lead a rather different life to most of the herd.
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BoxBob-K23
from Finland on 2006-01-12 10:13 [#01817099]
Points: 2440 Status: Regular
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We live in a world culture, we've lived for hundreds of years.
No "bloc" (socialist, anarchic or Islamic) can outdo trade relations and historical maneuverings.
This all means that wealth creation is not simply a matter of "systems" of governance, but rather diplomacy, wars and trade.
For example, Malaysia and China can simply break copyright laws (which aren't international to begin with) and replicate mass headache pills Or, the communist party of China can introduce McDonalds and Nike to its country and call it Marxism - it's not socialism or capitalism, it's internationalism.
No culture can isolate itself. China, for one, after opening up to westernizing Kai-Shekians for a few decades before 1949, continued Westernizing the country under Maoism. The point is that they were just emulating other countries including the Keynesian "mixed marketeers". They took influence certainly from the U.S.S.R. to some extent, but from Europe and the U.S. probably more so, just look at Fordism and Taylorism and all that crap. Communism there proved to be just a crude form of cybernetics (i.e. turning workers into robots).
So it's about transnational tendencies, it's about the globalizing process that follows the course set down by the early civilizations of Middle East, such as Mesopotamia and Greece. Only local politicians think they're so cool when they act all bureaucratical and shit. They're just morons. They're not calling the shots.
Communism is a joke. It's over with. Yet Che could well be a hero. These do not contradict.
I personally think the "problem" is with beliefs and policies in toto. We should have no beliefs and uphold no policies. But that's just the libertarian in me.
But if you want to expose the world to your system, prepare to meet resistance.
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swears
from junk sleep on 2006-01-12 10:45 [#01817106]
Points: 6474 Status: Lurker
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People often say "Communism is a nice idea, but...."
No it fucking isn't! I don't want some government controlling every aspect of my life, in the name of the "people". If communism worked (although I don't believe it ever could) and we lived in a perfect utopia with everything in unlimited supply, it would be very creepy. Imagine a heavy, benevolent hand on your shoulder constantly calculating how you live your life five years in advance. I'd go and live in the woods, unabomber style.
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QRDL
from Poland on 2006-01-12 10:47 [#01817108]
Points: 2838 Status: Lurker
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In Civilisation 2 communism was the easiest government to play with
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r40f
from qrters tea party on 2006-01-12 10:56 [#01817122]
Points: 14210 Status: Regular | Followup to Ceri JC: #01816988
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i'm curious what sort of activities you participate in that make you think you're some kind of True Fringe guy as opposed to a completely mainstream capitalist? do you sometimes try a different flavor of ice cream or something?
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swears
from junk sleep on 2006-01-12 11:06 [#01817139]
Points: 6474 Status: Lurker | Followup to r40f: #01817122
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The left wing does not have a monopoly on independent thinking. True Libertarians over here are way more radical, as the left in europe is easily as much a part of "the establishment" as the right. It's an ability to see past these narrow political boundaries that makes you a real free thinker.
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r40f
from qrters tea party on 2006-01-12 11:10 [#01817144]
Points: 14210 Status: Regular | Followup to swears: #01817139
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what are you talking about? i wasn't taking any sides at all with my comment. and i'm asking rhetorically, because i already know and really don't care what you're talking about.
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Mertens
from Motor City (United States) on 2006-01-12 11:11 [#01817145]
Points: 2064 Status: Lurker | Followup to swears: #01817106
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Haha, sounds like paradise...
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nacmat
on 2006-01-12 11:32 [#01817173]
Points: 31271 Status: Lurker
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unabomber sounds like an interesting human
to the rest: dont believe anybody that tells you that this is the only possible reallity
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swears
from junk sleep on 2006-01-12 11:34 [#01817177]
Points: 6474 Status: Lurker | Followup to nacmat: #01817173
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True, don't believe anyone who tells you communism is gonna
a) ever happen or b) solve anything.
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nacmat
on 2006-01-12 11:48 [#01817193]
Points: 31271 Status: Lurker | Followup to swears: #01817177
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live goes in cycles, dont dare to think anything lasts forever
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swears
from junk sleep on 2006-01-12 11:56 [#01817208]
Points: 6474 Status: Lurker | Followup to nacmat: #01817193
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I can see our society just crumbling into chaos, but not communism.
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nacmat
on 2006-01-12 11:59 [#01817214]
Points: 31271 Status: Lurker | Followup to swears: #01817208
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good for you
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OK
on 2006-01-12 12:16 [#01817250]
Points: 4791 Status: Lurker
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cuba's doing better and better each day.
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Taxidermist
from Black Grass on 2006-01-12 13:21 [#01817315]
Points: 9958 Status: Lurker | Followup to nacmat: #01817173
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Heh... I know I don't. I have lived many different lifestyles, but none of them have been under a communist regime. I like being able to have a credit card, and being able to buy computers, musical instruments, good food, bad food, and music. Its not perfect, because its a work in progress, and it will get worse, and it will get better. You would be suprised at how strongly people can be motivated by rewards.
But believe me, reality is subjective, and its maliable.
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