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Does Communism deserve another chance?
 

offline Taxidermist from Black Grass on 2006-01-12 06:16 [#01816937]
Points: 9958 Status: Lurker | Followup to hma: #01816935



Its pretty funny.


 

offline Drunken Mastah from OPPERKLASSESVIN!!! (Norway) on 2006-01-12 06:17 [#01816939]
Points: 35867 Status: Lurker | Followup to unabomber: #01816933 | Show recordbag



for the love of god! I'm just one person!


 

offline unabomber from Palma de Mallorca (Spain) on 2006-01-12 06:18 [#01816941]
Points: 3756 Status: Regular



Are you REALLY sure?


 

offline hma from real life on 2006-01-12 06:19 [#01816942]
Points: 528 Status: Lurker | Followup to Taxidermist: #01816937



ok i`m grabbin it


 

offline Drunken Mastah from OPPERKLASSESVIN!!! (Norway) on 2006-01-12 06:21 [#01816946]
Points: 35867 Status: Lurker | Show recordbag



well, ok, twelve, but still...


 

offline QRDL from Poland on 2006-01-12 06:22 [#01816949]
Points: 2838 Status: Lurker | Followup to hma: #01816942



wow, that's quite convenient


 

offline unabomber from Palma de Mallorca (Spain) on 2006-01-12 06:23 [#01816950]
Points: 3756 Status: Regular



Confess:
Twelve is right... but not humans...
You are twelve monkeys!!


 

offline Ceri JC from Jefferson City (United States) on 2006-01-12 06:24 [#01816951]
Points: 23533 Status: Moderator | Followup to Taxidermist: #01816912 | Show recordbag



Ker-ching!

That's my other stock argument, that I forgot to bring out
this time. Even people in absolute poverty are completely
free to say, "Sod this (society) for a game of cricket, I'm
off to fend for myself" and go off into the wilderness and
live off the land. Even in a massively overcrowded place
like the UK there's enough space to do this. Even if you
can't afford a train ticket to north Wales/Scotland, you can
hike. Admittedly if you build some massive manor house,
people who own the land (the government if it's a national
park) will turn up and ask questions, but if it's a shack
somewhere remote, will people really bother? 'Course not.
Sure, if you aren't fit, or reasonably intelligent, or able
bodied, or skilled in survival, you'll probably die, but
that would happen in "nature" anyway. I really don't
understand why more homeless people don't do this,
particularly as something like 1/4 of them are ex-forces.

The real reason most people don't, is that they actually get
more from society than they give and it suits them to stay
in it. That might sound mathematically incorrect, how can
people from the full spectrum of society get more out that
they put in? The reason is that we're greater than the sum
of our parts. The idea is that we all do something we're
good at, which we can do quickly and easily, in exchange for
something someone else can do. By and large a capitalistic
society works on this principle. I'm a bit of a jack of all
trades, but I freely admit there's no way my amateur
spannering is as good as that of a trained mechanic, my
reasonable cooking isn't on par with that of a chef, I'm not
as fit anymore as a labourer. When I want/need any of these
things done well, or even if I just can't afford the time to
do them, I pay someone else to do it.

Nacmat, no I've not been to Cuba. I have a slight interest
in it and have considered it for a holiday destination once
or twice. Everyone I know who has been has cited the poverty
you describe as a reason why it's a bad


 

offline QRDL from Poland on 2006-01-12 06:25 [#01816952]
Points: 2838 Status: Lurker | Followup to hma: #01816942



And Futurama is often extremely funny, but requires longer
getting into. Any Futurama is better than nowadays Simpsons,
but it is no match for some of the golden episodes from the
past.


 

offline Drunken Mastah from OPPERKLASSESVIN!!! (Norway) on 2006-01-12 06:26 [#01816953]
Points: 35867 Status: Lurker | Show recordbag



I am in fact twelve husky dogs.


 

offline QRDL from Poland on 2006-01-12 06:28 [#01816955]
Points: 2838 Status: Lurker | Followup to Ceri JC: #01816951



People nowadays don't appreciate what they actually get from
modern society. That why THE END is upon.


 

offline hma from real life on 2006-01-12 06:31 [#01816957]
Points: 528 Status: Lurker | Followup to QRDL: #01816952



thanks for the info! i really like simpsons so i probably
wont be dissapointed. will check out first episode :)


 

offline Ezkerraldean from the lowest common denominator (United Kingdom) on 2006-01-12 06:32 [#01816958]
Points: 5733 Status: Addict



society sux. i get nothing from it, not as a whole anyway.
i'd rather abandon it and live on a small island with a
group of friends than live a normal boring suburban 9-5
life.


 

offline hma from real life on 2006-01-12 06:45 [#01816964]
Points: 528 Status: Lurker



i live in former ussr country and i must say that i have
different feelings about freedom of speech and absence of
censorship. i cant stand so much things that i see in press
and on tv... fuck all reality shows about plastic surgery,
wife swap, superstars in two weeks and so on and and.
sometimes i wonder are these negative effects of capitalism
inevitable. cause it ends up that all people is thinking the
same and have the same opinions even more than in communism
with all the censorship.


 

offline Ceri JC from Jefferson City (United States) on 2006-01-12 06:45 [#01816965]
Points: 23533 Status: Moderator | Followup to QRDL: #01816955 | Show recordbag



I know. Look around us. Do you really think if you were off
fending for yourself you'd have enough free time to waste
hours on a messageboard? Think you'd of mined metal, refined
it, made a pc out of it. Set up a communications network
over which you can send your messages? Perhaps you would of
made a car? The list goes on and on... Reckon your precious
IDM would exist? Think you'd make a TB-303? Literature?
Film? Beer? Pretty much everything you enjoy in your life is
only possible because of society and you play a part,
however small, in it.

Taxi: Yep, I class Britain as a liberal democracy with
socialistic tendencies. People who moan about it being
oppressive, etc. crack me up. Go and live under a dictator
in some crackpot little country for a year then come back
and tell me if you still think Britain is so bad.

"The misconception of people who have unique
tastes, is that they seem to think that everybody wants what

they want." This is key to any of the alternative policies
failings. We call them a "vocal minority" for a
reason. A lot of them are just self-deluding and think we
want the same as them. However, the ones that really get my
back up are those who think they know better than me and
that they're more intelligent than I am (they usually
aren't).

I agree it can be frustrating how slow change is in coming,
but we can bring it about. In a democracy, if enough people
wanted it, we could bring about a communistic state, through
democratic channels in under 5 years. If a left wing party
got in (hate to piss on your bonfire, but Blair's lot aren't
socialists), you can guarantee the right wing lot would
moderate their policies to be nearer the status quo and
similarly an even more left wing party would spring up. If
it's what people wanted they could vote increasingly left
wing parties in for several elections on the trot. Of
course, most people are better off as it is, which is why we
never stray too far from the current situation.


 

offline unabomber from Palma de Mallorca (Spain) on 2006-01-12 06:46 [#01816966]
Points: 3756 Status: Regular



"cause it ends up that all people is thinking the
same and have the same opinions even more than in communism

with all the censorship"

YOU HIT THE NAIL IN THE HEAD


 

offline hma from real life on 2006-01-12 06:53 [#01816971]
Points: 528 Status: Lurker



maybe its some kind of societie`s evolution of from
individualism to collectivism. humans will end up living as
bees.


 

offline Ceri JC from Jefferson City (United States) on 2006-01-12 07:02 [#01816975]
Points: 23533 Status: Moderator | Followup to hma: #01816964 | Show recordbag



I agree that some of those things are wrong/repelent and a
lot of people cite all the decadence and depression etc. in
America as an example of why capitalism is bad.

I'd argue that censorship isn't the answer and that people
would be like this anyway, it's just that capitalism grants
them the freedom/money to do this and hence we only see it
in capitalistic countries. For example, I can't see you
getting a Michael Jackson in Cuba, because Castro's health
service wouldn't do expensive cosmetic surgery like he has
had, if the state was footing the bill (and rightly so).

Besides, the reason we see those people in the news is
because they're different from the norm. I, for example, am
riotously happy as it stands. I have few concerns about
security/my health. I always have enough to eat. I am able
to take almost 50% of my waking hours as recreation (a lot
of people really don't realise the value of this; work 12
hour+ days and saturday mornings for a few weeks and you'll
soon appreciate it). Of course I have occassional money
worries, but cutting out luxuries and working overtime
almost always solves that. On top of this, I am able to
divert enough funds/time to study a degree part time to
better myself, ensuring a better future for myself (not to
mention benefiting society in the process).

I realise there are some people in capitalistic society
(although they really are a minority), who are paid
far more than they're actually worth to society (pop
stars, politicians, company directors, etc.) The ideal
solution would be something like Parecon, but I can't see
that happening any time soon. Before we blame all that on
the wealthy though, I'd also actually say a lot of low level
jobs like store clerks/call centre workers are paid too much
for what they do too. Is it right that someone who works as
a nurse has the same salary as someone who stacks shelves at
B&Q?


 

online big from lsg on 2006-01-12 07:04 [#01816977]
Points: 23729 Status: Lurker | Followup to hma: #01816964 | Show recordbag



does not compute
it's about the terror from the government against it's
citizens
shitty tv shows are just that and you can turn it off


 

offline Ceri JC from Jefferson City (United States) on 2006-01-12 07:39 [#01816988]
Points: 23533 Status: Moderator | Followup to unabomber: #01816966 | Show recordbag



I'd argue if people allow themselves to be lead that way
it's because they're weak and lack imagination. The failing
is with the individuals, not the society that allows it. I
don't go out of my way to be "alternative", as actively
doing so is pointless, cringe-inducing and usually
indicative of a fairly boring person, but just by doing
things I enjoy, I lead a rather different life to most of
the herd.


 

offline BoxBob-K23 from Finland on 2006-01-12 10:13 [#01817099]
Points: 2440 Status: Regular



We live in a world culture, we've lived for hundreds of
years.
No "bloc" (socialist, anarchic or Islamic) can outdo trade
relations and historical maneuverings.

This all means that wealth creation is not simply a matter
of "systems" of governance, but rather diplomacy, wars and
trade.

For example, Malaysia and China can simply break copyright
laws (which aren't international to begin with) and
replicate mass headache pills Or, the communist party of
China can introduce McDonalds and Nike to its country and
call it Marxism - it's not socialism or capitalism, it's
internationalism.

No culture can isolate itself. China, for one, after opening
up to westernizing Kai-Shekians for a few decades before
1949, continued Westernizing the country under Maoism. The
point is that they were just emulating other countries
including the Keynesian "mixed marketeers". They took
influence certainly from the U.S.S.R. to some extent, but
from Europe and the U.S. probably more so, just look at
Fordism and Taylorism and all that crap. Communism there
proved to be just a crude form of cybernetics (i.e. turning
workers into robots).

So it's about transnational tendencies, it's about the
globalizing process that follows the course set down by the
early civilizations of Middle East, such as Mesopotamia and
Greece. Only local politicians think they're so cool when
they act all bureaucratical and shit. They're just morons.
They're not calling the shots.

Communism is a joke. It's over with.
Yet Che could well be a hero. These do not contradict.

I personally think the "problem" is with beliefs and
policies in toto. We should have no beliefs and uphold no
policies. But that's just the libertarian in me.

But if you want to expose the world to your system, prepare
to meet resistance.


 

offline swears from junk sleep on 2006-01-12 10:45 [#01817106]
Points: 6474 Status: Lurker



People often say "Communism is a nice idea, but...."

No it fucking isn't! I don't want some government
controlling every aspect of my life, in the name of the
"people". If communism worked (although I don't believe it
ever could) and we lived in a perfect utopia with everything
in unlimited supply, it would be very creepy. Imagine a
heavy, benevolent hand on your shoulder constantly
calculating how you live your life five years in advance.
I'd go and live in the woods, unabomber style.


 

offline QRDL from Poland on 2006-01-12 10:47 [#01817108]
Points: 2838 Status: Lurker



In Civilisation 2 communism was the easiest government to
play with


 

offline r40f from qrters tea party on 2006-01-12 10:56 [#01817122]
Points: 14210 Status: Regular | Followup to Ceri JC: #01816988



i'm curious what sort of activities you participate in that
make you think you're some kind of True Fringe guy as
opposed to a completely mainstream capitalist? do you
sometimes try a different flavor of ice cream or something?


 

offline swears from junk sleep on 2006-01-12 11:06 [#01817139]
Points: 6474 Status: Lurker | Followup to r40f: #01817122



The left wing does not have a monopoly on independent
thinking. True Libertarians over here are way more radical,
as the left in europe is easily as much a part of "the
establishment" as the right. It's an ability to see past
these narrow political boundaries that makes you a real free
thinker.


 

offline r40f from qrters tea party on 2006-01-12 11:10 [#01817144]
Points: 14210 Status: Regular | Followup to swears: #01817139



what are you talking about? i wasn't taking any sides at
all with my comment. and i'm asking rhetorically, because i
already know and really don't care what you're talking
about.


 

offline Mertens from Motor City (United States) on 2006-01-12 11:11 [#01817145]
Points: 2064 Status: Lurker | Followup to swears: #01817106



Haha, sounds like paradise...



Attached picture

 

offline nacmat on 2006-01-12 11:32 [#01817173]
Points: 31271 Status: Lurker



unabomber sounds like an interesting human

to the rest:
dont believe anybody that tells you that this is the only
possible reallity


 

offline swears from junk sleep on 2006-01-12 11:34 [#01817177]
Points: 6474 Status: Lurker | Followup to nacmat: #01817173



True, don't believe anyone who tells you communism is gonna

a) ever happen or
b) solve anything.


 

offline nacmat on 2006-01-12 11:48 [#01817193]
Points: 31271 Status: Lurker | Followup to swears: #01817177



live goes in cycles, dont dare to think anything lasts
forever


 

offline swears from junk sleep on 2006-01-12 11:56 [#01817208]
Points: 6474 Status: Lurker | Followup to nacmat: #01817193



I can see our society just crumbling into chaos, but not
communism.


 

offline nacmat on 2006-01-12 11:59 [#01817214]
Points: 31271 Status: Lurker | Followup to swears: #01817208



good for you


 

offline OK on 2006-01-12 12:16 [#01817250]
Points: 4791 Status: Lurker



cuba's doing better and better each day.


 

offline Taxidermist from Black Grass on 2006-01-12 13:21 [#01817315]
Points: 9958 Status: Lurker | Followup to nacmat: #01817173



Heh... I know I don't. I have lived many different
lifestyles, but none of them have been under a communist
regime. I like being able to have a credit card, and being
able to buy computers, musical instruments, good food, bad
food, and music. Its not perfect, because its a work in
progress, and it will get worse, and it will get better. You
would be suprised at how strongly people can be motivated by
rewards.

But believe me, reality is subjective, and its maliable.


 


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