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I'm just curious why discussions like this exsist? Can any of you actually do something about any of this? If so... do you? Who cares who is right or wrong because none of this is going to change. America is stupid for putting everything else above their own country. We should seal our boarders and take care of our people the ones starving in the streets. We should focus on our crime. And try to better ourselves. Instead we focus on every other country in the world for whatever reason. Then you have every other country that seems to use america as a scape goat of sorts anytime something goes wrong. Those countries should work on bettering themselves aswell. Maybe this way people would get somewhere in life instead of playing this bullshit game of politics. Left right whocares. If one continuously devides and catagorizes themselves then there can never be equality nor can there ever be common ground. Greed and Pride are whats killing this world. Not one country... but most of the earth inhabitants. Stuck up, paumpus, materialistic, self centered, selfish twats. |
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you are of course correct virgilpushington. |
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i disagree and i think the point of discussing politics is so that there is a dialogue about the things that directly effect you in government. this might come as a surprise, but you are supposed to pay attention to what's happening in your country. being ignorant about it is being part of the problem. and once something bad happens to you that the government was or wasn't supposed to take care of, you'll start worrying about politics. |
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your comments in this thread are ridiculous. you have no clue what you're talking about for someone who thinks they know the truth. "the big lie" you're fucking absurd. |
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vacant = theo himself ? |
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i mostly agree with all that, though i think a healthy selfishness is underrated. a righteously selfish person is inherently concerned with the good of his brothers, because it translates into his own good in the long run. |
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Oh trust me i do follow things. I am talking about these discussions of pissing all over each other based on what one is or isnt doing. Example: Look at campagns nowadays. It is about bettering something or directly saying how one could better something it is about making the other party look bad. Its pathetic. But anyways my point was mainly that its easy to be a living room quarterback its quite something else to get actively involved. Discussion is merely but one step in bettering something. Action is the next logical step. I wonder how much people here actually do. I am being honest and sincere. I sign petitions, i write senators/state reps etc etc. Actions speak louder than words. See the opening sentences of my previous post. |
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Discussions like this are important. Public opinion is hugely important; indeed, public opinion is seen by governments like your own as "the great beast" that "needs to be tamed". The only reason apparent to many that America has so many interests overseas, especially in the middle east, is that securing the region's natural resources will secure the American way of life for perhaps another few decades, at most. "The End of Suburbia" is a great documentary on this topic (the fact that natural resources are about to run out). You might call it "this bullshit game of politics", but unfortunately this bullshit game is what runs the world. Also, something to think about is that perhaps it is the American "way of life" (capitalism in its most extreme form) that is proliferating this greed, materialism, self-centeredness, selfishness and over-zealous pride. Please don't disregard this as an anti-american rant by me; if you think about it, the whole American concept is that everyone can make it and therefore you have to put yourself before everyone else, trample on anyone you have to, in order to make your way to the top and make money with which you can buy unneccesary luxuries and act even more materialistically and self-centered. This attitude, which basically amounts to pure and utter disrespect and disregard for others, is then exported in the mass media to other parts of the world. This is why I have such distaste for America. It is America, in every sense of the word, that is killing the world: - promoting this selfish way-of-life - invading countries mercilessly to secure natural resources - using far more natural resources than is necessary, for cars with 4+ litre engines, etc, and not imposing laws to curb the use of oil - polluting the world more than any other nation and refusing to impose laws regarding pollution on big business and automobile owners |
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OK - I've read the link. It contains nothing remotely convincing. I'd also point you , where it's clearly stated that Commentary Magazine (the source of the article you linked) is "considered a leading voice of the American Jewish community and the neoconservative movement". Hmm. Considering that the neoconservative movement orchestrated the war on Iraq, and that the American Jewish community is one of its most clamorous supporters, I'd say your article is far from unbiased. There you go. I think that I've "logically refuted" your argument. Now, I've read your link, you can now do me the courtesy of downloading and watching the documentary "The Power Of Nightmares". Logically refute that. |
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i mostly agree with all that, though i think a healthy selfishness is underrated. THE AMERICAN WAY, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN! great. just great. point proven. |
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and of course ignore the second part of the statement, ie. the point. |
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oh yeah and that link you posted, i stopped reading once he wrote: "Iraq is continuing, and in some areas expanding its chemical, biological, nuclear, and missile programs contrary to UN resolutions." The intelligence agencies of Britain, Germany, Russia, China, Israel, and—yes—France all agreed with this judgment. I know for a FACT that the Germans opposed this idea, tooth-and-nail, in the UN. Were they to do this while their intelligence agencies knew otherwise is unthinkable. Absolutely nothing in that article is cited. No sources given at all. It's pure bullshit. And emotive bullshit at that - the fact that you called the link "LAZY_LOGIC" is both ironic and indicative of your dillusion. |
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Actually, Virginpusher, I think it's really vitally important to debate like this. It is possible to influence other peoples' opinions for the better by doing so. It's far better and more constructive that people discuss politics than football. And I do *do* stuff, but I'm not vulgar enough to list the things I do on an internet messageboard just so that I can feel self-satisfied and better than everyone else. |
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your 'refutation' is just an attack on the person. why don't you try the content |
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you know for a fact, show me. i want to learn and grow like a flower |
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Excuse me? I not once mentioned the author of the article. I commented exclusively on its content. Start making sense. and start using the follow-up button as well, christ. |
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Also, something to think about is that perhaps it is the American "way of life" (capitalism in its most extreme form) that is proliferating this greed, materialism, self-centeredness, selfishness and over-zealous pride. Please don't disregard this as an anti-american rant by me; if you think about it, the whole American concept is that everyone can make it and therefore you have to put yourself before everyone else, trample on anyone you have to, in order to make your way to the top and make money with which you can buy unneccesary luxuries and act even more materialistically and self-centered. I can agree with wholeheartedly. This place is widely materialistic to unbelievable proportions. When you think of how people all over are starving and struggle to make basic needs (housing, food) and then you look at 1 car with $30,000 of pure accessories.... its mind blowing. Trust me i do see america as evil moreover and it shows in the overall life style and attitudes of most. I think the whole "blaming america for all of the worlds problems" is quite rediculous though. Do we cause our share of trouble. Yes. It is just popular to hate our country. If we all did extensive research we could find crap about every country and government. We need to stop passing the blame around and start taking responsibility for our actions. Everyone not just america but every country. |
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Right so, coming up in one second. |
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i can't keep up with your speed, plus this board isn't designed well enough for me to care to discover its features. when whoever talked about them being jewish neocons, that was the personal attack. now there is content discussed, and you say you know for a fact that the germans didn't do something the article said they did, so i would like to learn this from you, so prove it to me |
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oh wait, yeah this is what i was agreeing to: Left right whocares. If one continuously devides and catagorizes themselves then there can never be equality nor can there ever be common ground. Greed and Pride are whats killing this world. Not one country... but most of the earth inhabitants. Stuck up, paumpus, materialistic, self centered, selfish twats. I'm a big fan of open debate. |
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stop passing the blame? the US is by far the most responsible for the most destruction. we're number one. why shouldn't we be blamed? |
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The rest of us have long embraced the idea of laws regarding pollution, have signed up for treaties like Kyoto, etc etc. The reason it's popular to hate America right now is because there's widespread knowledge and information about the shit that's been going down. The best you get in other, developed countries is corruption, which is nothing when compared to utter disregard to other nations of the world. |
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why should americans feel guilty about their success? you're right, people should take their own personal responsibility and worry about their own problems. unfortunately the middle east is the world's problem and america's the only thing in the world who's giving it even halfway a serious thought. what is europe good for in this instance? when iran nukes something, who will be expected to deal with them? |
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thats my main point that i wanted to get across with that. I run on tagents too often. ahah! I dont justify actions but i am honest enough with myself to realize that the only way to change things are through action! Debates are good and fine but are merely a stepping stone to action. I think manicminer [#01773978] was the only one to touch on that. Our followup system is pure shit at this board and make these discussions nearly impossible with the quick rate of posting and sheer volume of posts in a given time |
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the followup is badass, but some sort of integrated 'quote' feature in addition would be SUPERB! cause it's tough if someone has a multi-part post or you want to reply to more than one dude/dudette. |
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haha, kyoto. i agree with the concept completely. it is rediculous how poorly we treat the only place we have to live. but, it doesn't really count if your country signs the accord but then totally doesn't follow the guidelines of the treaty. |
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Left right whocares. If one continuously devides and catagorizes themselves then there can never be equality nor can there ever be common ground. because moderates (ie most democrats) do absolutely fuck all about anything. the extreme right is in power, not the everybody-is-equal club. people in the middle aren't more fair - they're just people who don't take enough action. |
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If you read my post properly, you'll see that I never referred to "Jewish neocons". |
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z - u - L - u that's the way you say zuLu |
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And I hardly think pointing out that the magazine from which the article was taken is biased amounts to a "personal attack" on its author. You really are spouting some half-baked tripe. |
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virginpusher said: Greed and Pride are whats [sic] killing this world. Not one country. so true... and poLLution must be there too... though it sometimes goes hand by hand with greed... |
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I'm a 'yank.' I still believe that Bush and his good ole' boys club are a bunch of ignorant, selfish, arrogant assholes who care for nothing but the continuing profit of their businesses. |
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not that this is in any way a real debate or series of logical arguments, but manicminer you should read at least this |
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did you read it? because the point manicminer was correctly making was that the article you linked to was biased in content and was written to serve an agenda and trick sheep like you into being limbaugh-regurgitators. |
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united nations is the united states' bitch |
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how is the content biased? no one of you has proven any of it wrong yet. |
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unfortunately the middle east is the world's problem and america's the only thing in the world who's giving it even halfway a serious thought. what is europe good for in this instance? when iran nukes something, who will be expected to deal with them? it is a worse problem than it should be BECAUSE of our "giving it even a halfway serious thought." We half-assed it, thinking only of how we could profit from our involvement and have made it a greater problem than it should have been for the rest of the world. |
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Quite a few people have you thick bigot. |
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what are you referring to? the closest was someone saying germany didn't do something the article said they did, and then no followup/proof |
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that means that there was exactly as much proof as you presented - none. you're in deep denial! this shit just happened a few years ago! where have you been? |
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LOOK AT WHO PUBLISHED THE ARTICLE. I gave you a link showing what kind of magazine that is. Surely you are intelligent enough to see that this publication has an agenda? Show us an article from a reliable, impartial source and maybe we'll take it seriously. |
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you guys are pathetic, i'm making myself such an easy target and you don't do anything with it. no, the article was presented as an interesting read, not proof of anything... and it was issued with a challenge, to refute anything it says. artificially putting the burden of proof on you all. so far no one has undertaken the challenge in any kind of meaningful way. if your side is so airtight, why not put me in my place and tear apart this "obviously biased" neocon claptrap? |
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you still don't get that just pointing at the identity of the writer does not disprove anything in the content, do you? did you read the thing about ad hominem arguments? it's philo 101 stuff duke. step yo game up |
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because the burden of proof is ON YOU, that's how that expression works! you're the one with the historical revisionist claims from some propaganda editorial! you prove it! |
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tbe burden of proof isn't on me because the whole point of the exercise (outlined in the post with the link to the article) was to challenge any or all of you to disprove it. it doesn't matter if i even agree with the article (which is irrelevant to the exercise) |
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you keep calling it revisionist, you obviously believe it very strongly... so present the evidence for your belief. why should that be hard for you? |
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because i'm not here to play games with some twat telling me to do his excercises. you're really a joke. |
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i can't get to the goddamn article because it seems to be hosted on someone's fuckin pocket watch. |
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it's funny though because in your ad hominem link, they point at a priest who's argument against abortion is based in religion. his argument is wrong because it presupposes the existence of God and a standard morality. As a priest, he is required to follow the word of his God. So pointing to the priest is really just indirectly pointing to his flawed logic, from the standpoint of a non christian or catholic or whatever. I guess in a way, it is unfair to assume the priest's argument is based in religion, but the fact that he is a priest kinda dictates the source of his argument. am i making sense here. it is a poor example of an ad hominem argument, is what I'm saying, i guess. sorta. |
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i guess my overall point is that you guys spout lots of bullshit, brash bullshit... calling things revisionist, working on assumptions that you have forgotten your reasons for, if you ever had them. step the fuck back and refine thyself. i need to do the same for myself of course, and i know nothing on message boards is serious so why am i bothering, but what can i say |
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