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when it comes to music there are plenty of genres where the ideology behind it is quite important for better understanding of it. in electronic music that isn't the case, and it all just about composition and sound, nothing behind it (in most cases). how important is the ideology behind music to you? do you appreciate some genre/band more if there's something more to it that just the sound of it? personally, i find the sound of it the most important, and no matter what's behind it i won't start liking it if it does nothing for me..perhaps i'd get interested in something a bit more, but if i didn't like the sound of it i'd probably leave it at that. |
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Ummmm. No. That is wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong. Do I need to add another wrong to express how wrong you are? Most of the classic electronic music, and much of the more ingenious electronic music being produced nowadays is just as much concept as sound. Generally albums that are done without an ideology in mind come out sounding shallow... |
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well.. I listen to lots of hip-hop, and in hip-hop, as you know, lyrics matter, so I don't listen to stuff with shit lyrics (except for a select few things where the beats are just so amazing), and lyrics are connected to the "ideology," so I guess it would be kind of important to me... however, when I listen to lyricless stuff like lots of the electronica and jazz, I go by instinct. If I like it on first listen it will stay forever, and then nothing but sound matters. |
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I think there's a difference between ideology and concept. A concept can be "I'll make one entire album with nothing but songs in 7/8s!" while ideology is more "save the whales" (or whatever. silly example, but you get my drift...). |
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On the dancefloor, sound rules, but I find it hard to believe that music cannot hold a persons attention through concerted listening without an ideology or concept. Its just much harder to express through electronic music due to the lack of lyrics. Usually the album art, becomes necessary, as does the mood. The orb were able to tell great stories through their early to mid music, as was fsol (the story behind both dead cities and lifeforms is pretty easy to make out). |
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Compositions stem from extra-musical ideas, you can't pluck a composition out of thin air. therefore, every composition is based on some concept. The music is the result of the concept, and is more important. |
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in electronic music that isn't the case, and it all just about composition and sound, nothing behind it (in most cases). bollocks, in this case this ends a discussion. check alva noto and raster-noton label for better understanding of electronic music and in this case its ideology, then come back to talk. |
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Polar conversation between sound and ideology. Although ideology and concept are not the same, concept is a part of ideology. In a conversation discussing to extremes, it is important to be able to ascertain where the grey areas may lay, so they can be utilized to the fullest potential, therefore forging a stronger discussion. |
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Here is a picture I took at the aquarium... |
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sure there's a concept behind almost every album, but i don't know of any ideology behind the most electronic music (i'd love to hear if there's something to lets say the most hyped ones - ae, aphex, pusher..as i think there isn't). the same goes for most experimental stuff, it's all more about exploring the sounds..ofcourse there are exceptions, but the most electronic music i know is all about the sound. |
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No. That is all ideology. Generally, the ideology towards experimental music is music that explores the possibility of sound. Autechre has a very strong ideology, which is overstated in every interview. The Orb made a point of trying to tell stories in their music, that was their ideology. Matmos try to sample in their music with as much imagination as possible. People like aphex make music for money (no ideology there). Boards of canada make music that is meant to sound ageless, as they seem to feel that good music is good reguardless of when it is made. Most 'bands', that you seem to have said are capable of making music with a stronger ideology than electronic music, generally just try to put together albums that sell, or sound good. |
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oh, and i definitely don't agree wit this at all; "Generally albums that are done without an ideology in mind come out sounding shallow" :) |
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well, I'm a pacifist and a rationalist, but I don't really take that into consideration when making songs... however, I do sometimes go "I'll make this tune in 3/4s!" or "I'll make an etude (sp?) for piano instead of the regular crap" (even though, most of the time, I'll just tinker and play with something until music appears). while the first two are ideologies, the last two are concepts. I don't really see the connection between pacifism and 3/4s or etudes. the thing about lyricless music, is that conveying the same emotion or conjuring up the same connections in everyone who hears it would be impossible due to the fact that we all connect different things to different sounds and feelings. Some of us may feel nostalgic at something while others may feel plain happy, and so-on. Although words share many of the same attributes (the connection between them and their meaning is arbitrary), they are more concrete, and will allow a better "conveyance" of ideology, if such is present. I guess what I'm saying is that trying to convey something through music is kind of pointless, as everyone will react differently... |
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I think you and I have a different understanding of what an ideology is. If you are talking strictly politics and religion, then yes, generally electronic music is pretty short on the ideology scale. |
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I'd still call all of those concepts, and in any case - what makes you so sure aphex hasn't got an ideology then? |
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could be ideology, but it's based on sound..the ideology of sound perhaps..music can be enjoyable just from the sound aspect alone..doesn't need to be put in some social context, no need to be interpreted in different ways..it's all down to the sound of it. for me anyway :) |
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There is a difference between the subjective output of the artist and the subjective understanding of the listener. The ideologies that an artist uses might not necessarily be noticable to the listener. I think all different kind of musics would end up looking about the same if you talked to all the artists (ideology to sound importance ratio, I mean) |
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I know people who have hung out with his good friends. Generally, they all seem to feel that aphex only makes an album when he feels financially compelled to. |
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Bring up some examples of ideology in non electronic music? |
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The ideologies that an artist uses might not necessarily be noticable to the listener. so you have to read interviews with artists before you decide if their music is good? as you said: "Generally albums that are done without an ideology in mind come out sounding shallow." What if you hear something and it sounds shallow, and then you discover that the artist has the most noble aspirations ever with his music.. does it become less shallow? |
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Here is another picture I took at the aquarium. |
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Words are relative too. It doesn't stop me from trying to communicate to others. When you listen to a style of music, it will convey a general idea you can pick upon, just like words. However, like Taxidermist I am not dealing with politics here, I'm dealing with the ideas that come to make up a composition, I will leave this thread now. |
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* shallow sounding |
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No. I never factored good or bad into this discussion. That is a different discussion than the one I was contributing to. I just said that I thought tolstoyed was wrong in saying that electronic artists don't have much of an ideology in what they do. I enjoy 'shallow' music as much as I do 'deep' music. |
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And when I said generally, I didn't mean always. That is just what my subjective stance on the subject is. |
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yes, I said that already.. however, while a tune trying to convey "a rock" most likely will fail in 80% of the cases, the word "rock" brings up the connection right away... taxi: that first picture was pretty amazing! what's going on in it? |
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well, politics and religion aren't the only aspects, just the most obvious ones..it's the same with any other social phenomenon. |
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An example of two albums that are made soley with sound in mind: eDIT - crying over prose for no reason Crunch 2 Both albums I have enjoyed immensly, but neither album is anything I would consider deep. Its just good sound design. |
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ah, I misunderstood, then. anyway, it seems you agree with tolst in a way, as you both can enjoy music with no "deeper meaning" to it just for the sound. I've always thought "deeper meaning" was crap anyway because of the aforementioned subjectivity of interpretation. |
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V/VM |
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Yes. And the point I am trying to make is that ideology and sound are not separate, its just words make an ideology more obvious. |
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that is to say.. if you're conveying meaning, be obvious about it! Stop dancing around all over the place when the words "I hate war" would do. |
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Its in one of the tanks with an open top, and it has water pouring in through an artificial waterfall of sorts. |
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ok.. it kind of reminds me of "gaia" from the final fantasy movie (and mako from ff7, and lots of the other "lifestream" things in all the final fantasies). Anyway, a very neat picture! did you do any editing on it after? |
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Look at autechre's garbage ep, that had a song without any repetetition, with a label on the cover about the UK law against repetetive music being played in public... |
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"I just said that I thought tolstoyed was wrong in saying that electronic artists don't have much of an ideology in what they do. " that wasn't meant in a bad way..as i said, to me the sound of it is the most important. i can enjoy a piece of music even if there's nothing behind it..infact it doesn't make much difference to me either way.. "Yes. And the point I am trying to make is that ideology and sound are not separate, its just words make an ideology more obvious." yes i agree on that i think, but there are a lot of music fans who find electronica to be a bit shallow because there are no social aspects to it usually..it's all just about the ideology of exploring the sound. |
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There was more empty water in the picture, so I cropped it, and rotated it 90 degrees to remove any point of reference. No digital editing aside from that. |
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Oh. Well, since you put it that way, I think most of those people are idiots because they need a poem to help them remember a melody or a song. So we can stop arguing about this then. Hmmm. I see. Ummmm. New discussion: family guy vs american dad. Which show is funnier? |
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:) |
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how important is the ideology behind music to you? it was important when i was younger. nowadays it totally isn't. it's needless, music is music do you appreciate some genre/band more if there's something more to it that just the sound of it? there are some bands with their message like New Model Army. i still like them. there's some spirit and energy in their songs. |
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in that case they did good! (but their music is only still ok) |
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so the glow is there naturally? great! oh, wait! I see how it is now too! yay! |
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enjoying the sound and composition is an ideology in itself. It's basically saying that you should enjoy music that sounds good and gives you an almost euphoric feeling. |
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Yeah. The glow is actually oxygen bubbles. :) |
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Here is another picture from the aquarium. I quite like aquariums. |
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ooh! devilfish or whatever they're translated as! (we call them "skate") |
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Its a sealion! |
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yea, well there are concepts behind the tracks, ideology behind music sounds misplaced to me anyway, like political propaganda |
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Are you talking about rays? (this picture is not mine, I got it from the wikopedia) |
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ah, yes, that was what I thought it looked like.. from the underside. anyway, that just makes the pic more interesting... |
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