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totally true. but at the same time, i can't think of any modern war more acceptable to have been involved in than ww2, and i say that as a vehemently anti-war pacifist. BUT, what the americans did with internment camps for the japanese and dropping the bombs is totally utterly inexcusable. the bombs didn't even need to be dropped because the japanese leaders tried to surrender to the soviets. it was a despicable act. they wanted to show up the soviets and start the cold war because they wanted an arms race for the economy. |
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i don't want to skew anything you say. please elaborate. |
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I just think you characterized Iraq (read: saddam) as a benign leader of a helpless little country... which, I don't think is exactly accurate. |
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he was a shitty dictator who killed lots of people over the years. he committed awful crimes, sure. on the other hand, iraq had no nukes or wmds and they weren't even close to being as powerful as saudi arabi or iran. we went in there with the full knowledge that there was nothing to be gained except the murders of thousands more innocent women and children and an oil pipeline. there was no legitimate reason for choosing iraq to topple rather than the much worse oppressive dictatorships all over the world except that it's how we have our economics/diplomatic relations set up with iraq as the punching bag. |
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I don't really see how the killing of civilians would be a goal for us. I mean, I could buy the argument of blatant recklessness, but purposfully targetting civilians? |
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if you ask me - WW2 has been sold absolutely....meaning the justifications for going to war have ripples we still feel to this day - and probably will always feel whenever a chance for war arises. that to me is very dangerous - the government can always pick the scab and get the people all charged up for war, just by bringing WW2 terms into the mix. |
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1 iraqee per 1000 has died an unnatural death since the invasion by the us |
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that's not what i meant by that. i meant we knew it was going to happen. the insiders organizing this knew that we were going to have to get our hands really dirty. there's just no way around it. that's part of war. |
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mm, that's 'just' a few thousand, anyhoo, it's a big mess now, though that's to blame on extremists and stuff in the first place |
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I think we legitimately thought there was a good chance Saddam had wmd. Was the intelligence as strong as they tried to have us believe? No. But, did the admin know for a fact that they didn't have it? No, I don't believe so. And, the burden of proof, for showing that they did not have wmd layed squarely on Saddam. The UN agreed on that several times, and yet did nothing. The sanctions were killing thousands of innocent civilians every month. The course of action that the UN was choosing was not working. It was not saving lives and it was not accomplishing it's core goals. |
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We need some extra terrestrials to attack us. Maybe then we will unite. |
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It is also fair to say that the cold war was a lie in the first place. The Soviet union didn't have the economy to build loads of weapons. Which is why the soviet union fell, because the american administration made up a cock and bull story. |
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well yours is even more flawed. the war didn't take place years ago, it took place now, when iraq is/was a helpless benign nation. |
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i don't know how anyone bought that nonsense about the wmds, i'm sorry man. they had collin powell with a blurry b&w of a toolshed and he was going, "uh yeah, there's nukes in here i guess". it was total bullshit. i didn't believe it for a second. they lied to us. nothing short of complete lies. and who do you think loves sanctions, the least effective method of dealing with dictators ever? i'll give you a hint - the country that's been starving out cuba for a while... the country that laughs in the face of that extraneous UN... besides, even if saddam somehow hypothetically had nukes, that was absolutely no reason to invade iraq. what about all the other insane dictators with nukes? we didn't invade them... but we did need that pipeline and we did need to fight our war on terr. |
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yes - this would rule - think about what would happen if that actually occurred - anti war protests - gone (for the most part, only those wierd cults would not want us to kill the aliens) - wmd - USE THEM, need something that will show then who's the boss, it would really be a unifying factor "all humans must come together and destroy the enemy" reminds me of the film starship troopers |
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The only (at least the main) reason they were so hobbled is because of the sanctions. The sanctions were manipulated by Saddam so that they were almost solely targetting civilians, and they were not really putting pressure on him to comply with the resolutions that the UN was trying to impose. |
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Ironically enough, that movie had nazi undertones. |
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And book |
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I'm not claiming he had nukes, and I'm claiming that oil was not a factor. But, I do think the ball was in Saddam's court to prove that he didn't have them, and I don't think that he did... in fact, I think he actively tried to twart all attempts to verify the truth. |
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you need to kill more civilians to save them? i don't get that at all. we killed way more innocent people in the invasion than saddam ever did over the years. |
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and I'm not claiming that oil was not a factor. |
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and anyhow - bush was talking about invading iraq the second he got into office in his first term. the wmd thing was made up - everyone knew iraq didn't have capabilities to make wmd, and that the only reason saddam was being a bollocks with weapons inspectors was that he viewed them as both an insult and a violation of Iraq's sovereignty and Iraqi pride. so that just leaves the current idea perpetuated by blair and bush - that it's good they went in because they also went in to LIBERATE the iraqi people. If they had ever given a shit about the Iraqis they would've - 1) not provided them with weapons and chemicals to perform ethnic clensing 2) done something about it in the late 80s early 90s when all that horrific stuff was at its peak (and US contributions of arms and chemicals were at their peak) 3) stopped the UN sanctions and performed regime change from the inside out, the way that the Americans have proved works, with all the other regime changes they've performed over the years, in order to topple economically unfavourable governments. They didn't do this last point because it would've left the Iraqis in charge to decide who would be in power, instead of the Americans to choose a prime minister who would keep Iraq selling oil by the dollar and not euro and would set up a government that would play kindly with the American economy. |
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well, what is the solution then? lift the sanctions and hope that saddam behaves? |
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maybe he did, who knows? you don't invade a country based on maybe someone thinks he has a nuke hidden away that he can't deploy without being annhilated by the real countries in the area. |
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if everyone knew that Saddam didn't have wmd, then why was Hanz Blix looking for them? |
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third point of my post. i'll put up information about regime changes that've occured from the inside out, due to american funding, to appease american interests, if you wish. |
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Hanz Bwix! |
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To prove to the world, on paper, that they didn't have them. It's beaurocracy. I'm not at all complaining about it, it's right to have weapons inspectors, and to prove outright that a country has no capability of making wmds.. but it was the opinion of anyone with common sense that they didn't. |
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yes. |
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It was the Russian winter that won ww2 |
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and their scorched earth policy. wow, it was my reply to this thread that turned this into an Iraq War discussion. POWA. |
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I can think of a few countries that are shady and blatantly developing WMD's..Let's roll baby. Kill'em all. woohoo. |
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Looks like North Korea is next on your list. You might get bitten badly this time. And the whole world will suffer as a result. |
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great idea! let's start with north korea! ready for the draft? ready for all your friends to die? another vietnam? ready to tangle with china? another cold war? sounds good, you go first. |
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geopolitics is awesome! |
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WELL IT'S ONE TWO THREE WHAT ARE WE FIGHTIN FOR DON'T ASK ME I DON'T GIVE A DAMN NEXT STOP IS VIETNAM AND IT'S FIVE SIX SEVEN OPEN UP THE PEARLY GATES WELL, HELL, THERE AIN'T NO TIME TO WONDER WHY WHOOPEE WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE |
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why would you blame the americans on this board? imo they're pretty alrighty :) |
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Netherlands didn't have the biggest percentage decimation of Jews - it was here, in Lithuania. |
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i stab myself in the leg with a fork every time i laugh while watching MASH, to remind myself war isnt all fun and games... |
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I would also stab myself if i laughed while watching MASH because it sucks. |
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