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"And martial arts were not born to learn how to fight" marlowe, old bean... you confusing "martial arts" with "the particular chinese style of kung fu you know about" I'm talking about tthe japanese systems i've been studying for a while. These were developed over centuries in a country that was ravaged by war. A lot of it was used on the battlefield where survival and bodycount was important. (like medieval European combat) so yes... these were "born to fight" But..a lot of it was also used for espionage, information gathering and protection, where killling somebody would be detrimental to the overall tactics of the situation. Much like in todays society. (killling people even if they try and kill you, highly indefensible in modern law) So learning not to fight is HUGELY important in modern martial art and i think is one of the many inevitable goals that evolve through longterm serious study. (i make a distinction between martial arts and martial sports, where fighting, in a competive and rule-based environment, is the aim) i don't know much about chinese styles but i do know that the human body works the same everywhere and social condtions leading to aggression are universal too. |
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hmm, so when I said Romanticised (which the same as Romanised) for Westerners I was correct, except I should have said "by" instead of "for" |
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Chinese martial arts predate Japanese martial arts. They were developed from a set brought over by some Buddha from India or somewhere, because he found the monks so ill-adapted to sitting in the lotus position. that is where the first martial art originated from. I bet most people think Zen is a Japanese concoction -- it originates from China, where its name is "Chan" Modern martial arts are taken up by pasty white kids who fantasise about beating up the school bully and getting laid. Martial Arts are about preparing the body for the gruelling physicalities of meditation and yoga. They by-product of being able to perform great feats of endurance and physical extremes is nothing special, just as developing supernatural powers is merely a by-product of the study and practice of magick -- the people who think that it is the AIM of martial arts (or that supernatural powers is the AIM of magick) are galloping down a dead-end which leads to no more enlightenment than eating a grain of rice leads to a full stomach. |
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eh.. the Shaolin Monastery existed first. then, the monks there decided they needed a way of defending their temples and sacred places from attacks, and developed Kung-fu. Shaolin Kung-Fu is just kung-fu from the Shaolin Monastery.. it wasn't called shaolin kung-fu before the shaolin monastery. you heard the myth of how kung-fu itself was developed, right? an indian prince was worried about his family (can't remember exactly, but there was some trouble.. probably assasination-attempts against the king (which is a common feature in eastern legends and stories), and went to meditate upon a hill, but was interrupted by some animal (either a monkey or a crane catching fish.. I think the crane was invented by a hurt monk once, but I can't remember). he then watched the animal and copied its moves, 'cause to him, animals seemed to be superior in battle, and he thought "what better way to deal with the problems than doing as the animals, and becoming better in battle?" however, this is only a legend, and while legends hold certain amounts of truth, there are also other aspects that can be distrusted. what I DO know, is that it is common for religious groups to use their own beliefs and rituals in combat (either offensive or defensive) to "justify" their actions, which would normally be judged as "bad" actions by their god (this is a common perception in religion-studies, and I seriously doubt it is any different for the Shaolin monks. |
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romanticised and romanised is not the same. romanticised is when it is given a glory-filter, in a way. romanised is about translating the souns of other languages into roman characters. |
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japanese martial arts: most of these are adapted from chinese and korean martial arts, but they are to a greater extent about doing physical damage, as Keys says. Karate, for example, as Bruce Lee said, is like "a stick with a iron ball on the end, rigid and stiff" |
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Romanticised means the same as Romanised - I wasn't using the modern definition, meaning "a shit hollywood film". The Romantic languages aren't romantic because they have 10 billion words for "love", they are romantic because they are an offspring of Latin, the ROMAN language. Shaolin GongFu is the original martial art, and it from where the Shaolin Monks get their name now -- have you been watching too many dodgy imports? And, no, I didn't get my version of the history from a Legend - I got it from History books of martial arts and the Shaolin Arts, written by practicioners from the Far East, with no Western influence to taint them. The simple truth is -- the shaolin arts were developed to strengthen the monks for primarily the lotus position. Because they were later added to and adapted to fend off marauders doesn't affect this, no more than the Holy Roman Catholic Church changes who Jesus WAS -- it has only changed the perception of who he was, just as the modern preponderance for Martial Arts fighting films has distorted the reality of its genesis. Who cares what Bruce Lee says? Japan is a warrior nation, that's why they fit into the Western Ideal so easily. |
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first of all, my sources are different books about eastern philosophy, religion and martial arts. I've also seen quite a few documentaries about china and its religious practices plus quite a few kung-fu movies (yeah, I know those don't count as a source, except for 36 chambers, 'cause the training-methods are mostly true methods of training (although the film is a bit "harder" on the "students"). Shaolin is one single temple in northern china. It was named Shaolin long before they developed Kung-fu, and the name Shaolin Kung-fu is a way of telling people where your Kung-Fu comes from. At first it was only called Kung-Fu 'cause there was only one, but later, when everyone decided they needed their own kung-fu (the various emperors developed their own Kung-Fu, and named it after themselves, and so-forth), the need to "brand" the kung-fu with a name, telling people where it was from, became necessary. and.. who cares what Bruce Lee says? I do, and it's because there never has been and never will be such a great practicioner of Kung-Fu (except for in legends)! He mastered both the spiritual AND the physical, and moved on to experience other forms of martial arts! |
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rockenjohnny, I really appretiate your consise, yet detailed and informative reply. Taichichuan? yeah I was doing that long time ago. It was manditory to know it before becoming hardcore and using it to fight.... BUT. I moved and I did not become hardcore. |
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I have tried doing tai-chi on a temperature that was about -15 to -20 degrees celsius. After 30 minutes of practice I was so warmed up that I did not need any jacket or anything. I was in shirt and pants in the middle of winter. Only my pinky, ears and nose were freezing. Everything else had a continuous flow of blood and heat. It was very neat and I did not get sick. |
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BruceLee is a hero to Westerners, god knows why -- he concocted Jeet Kune Do, which is good, but to make the claims you make are simply embarassing. BTW, I mentioned the Shaolin Arts, which were from the Shaolin Temple, which, tho only one temple, became a mecca for students of the Arts and of Buddhism throughout the far east... shaolin gongfu is named after the temple, I know, but I'm talking about BEFORE the Shaolin Arts became Gongfu, or Kung Fu as you call it, being a cracka. |
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Bruce Lee is not only a hero to westerners. you forget his HUMONGOUS fanclub in china, and his funeral, which had people crying for three days! he also worked his way back up from the doctors saying "you will never be able to walk again," to developing Jeet-Kune do! Don't be all "postcool," saying you don't like Bruce Lee, 'cause you can't deny that he was a master! |
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I have his Tao of Jeet Kune Do and I admire him for certain of his tenets, and I know about him breaking his back, and of course, he was a master. However, to claim he is the best martial artist ever etc etc is to fall into the Western trap... it's like saying "The 4th patriarch was the best patriarch ever!" It's fatuous... he was a supreme artist, demanding much study and respect. That was my point. I'm not dissing mr. lee. :) I'm off to work now - catchya later -- check my spam thread for a message to you which you may have missed. |
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the only good way is the way of the sword. dot. |
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yer welcome .. im inspired by my teachers approach and am happy to share it with anyone who asks :) |
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Japanese Martial Arts - while they have their roots in Chinese and Korean systems, were isolated enough for many centuries to develop their own perspective. Karate is a highly specialised Japanese (well, Okinawan to be presice) martial art that has many different facets: in the West they are mostly sport orientated. It's method of movement suited to the islanders that developed it along with their folk-dancing and it was never ment for battlefield use. It got popularised in the West because it got popularised in Japan in the 50's dues to Japanese new-found aversion to weapons based systems. "whats this empty-hand stuff that come from that tropical island - its cool!" The Americans stationed there after the war cought onto this popularity and novelty value and exported it along with judo - which was developed in the 1900's for its use in school educational programs. Both now have a masssive following in the West but are highly sport-orientated. What do you think Western special police units, secret service and other frontline folks get thought? Sports like Karate and Judo? Not at all. For realistic fighting they get thought streamlined down versions of Japanese "old-school" systems of jujutsu and bujutsu and firearms. This is what i study except it isn't streamlined (or watered down) as i have more time than a professional security person to study these things. (unless he studys them outside office hours of course) I do not know about Chinese martial arts systems and their evolution but i can say confidently, that if a martial art has been in the hands of intelliegent humans for generations and has evolved through actually dangerous times and not been reduced to a dance or sport or parlour tricks then they all reach the same conclusions about human mechanics, psychology and the abiltiy to efficiently dampen aggresion - not just japanese old-school arts. |
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not every japanese martial art comes from china - i agree they borowed most of things, and changed them for their own purposes, but some martial arts are strictly japanese - tho you can think that they are not from japan, its just about similarities. |
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rockenjohnny, it is quite similar to what I have tried to achieve with self-hypnosis, although meditation gives away different brain waves. That can be quite helpful while mastering hypnotic techniques. You can use self hypnosis while doing martial arts. You can make everything seem slowed down and react to opponen't movements at greater speeds. |
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thats an interesting idea .. im intrigued by the elasticity of time :) |
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Be careful you might become a spiderman !!! :) |
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damn, I never thought this thread would grow, and be so full of info! thanks guys!!! :-D |
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have you done this then 3051? i've seen plenty of weird things but only from people who've got 25+ years experience in non-sports martial arts the altering of ours and our opponents perception of time is a part of it but to do it under actual aggresive conditions takes, ironically enough, a long length of actual time and study with people who really know what they're talking about. Otherwise its David Blain psychodrama. |
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Go sit under a tree and become enlightened. If Buddha could do it, so can you. |
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Has anyone studied the martial arts of other lands? For instance, Capoeria of Brazil or Vale Tudo? |
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vale tudo is not a martial art, its not even the art, its just slapingh your head with fist, no ideology, culture, no anything behind that. fuck, saying that vale tudo is an art is like to say that britney spears is the godess of IDM. the same as K1, BJJ, and other stupid ...things, that you can learn only to fight. |
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"have you done this then 3051?" Once. It was stress induced... It probably happened to you. Have you ever fell from a bike (lets say) and realized how everything was slow while you were falling? |
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"If Buddha could do it, so can you." Such enlightenment sounds to me like an open wound that neither heals or has a cause. |
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i interviewd a buddhist today but that prolly has nothing to do with this thread greetinx |
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hey, is it true that buddha's biggest fear was that he'd be immortalized and worshipped as a god after his death? isn't it ironic, dontcha think? |
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No. |
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