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irrefutable proof that human beings are simply collections of chemicals and that subsequently, free will is an illusion and that even thought is simply a pre-determined chemical process resulting in nothing more than a combination of our genes and our environment. In short- that we know all there is to know about the body/conciousness and that we can prove "souls" (or whatever approximation you want to give to that sort of term for your being) prove that's all there is. |
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You have to be rid of belief to know something. |
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Show me irrefutable proof that there is no stuffed purple bunny orbiting the galaxy M80. It makes more sense to ask where your proof is that there *need* be a soul or free will. |
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At the other end of the spectrum though, telling people it's okay to fail in escaping their depression and it's not their fault hardly encourages them to put their heart and soul into beating it. It's a tricky one, isn't it? :) |
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No shit? You think I've not thought of that? :P That's why no one has proven whether or not God exists. That's where belief enters the equation. Okay, substitute "irrefutable proof" in my previous statement for a "very highly likely" (say, just as likely as being true and subsequently as commonly accepted among educated people as our current laws of physics, basic biology, maths, etc.) and it still means the same. |
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Yea I agree! I think each case should be judged accordingly. Althou I sometimes doubt the doctors'/psychiatrists' judgement :s I feel a lot of times they approach mental problems wrongly Hmm I'll sleep on it. Nite :) |
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Proving that people are "simply collections of chemicals " wouldn't mean that freewill is an illusion. This collection of chemicals could be able to think freely and behave freely, because it is a collection of chemicals that has individual and independant consciousness. Also we ARE a collection of chemicals as far as I can tell. Also I guess you could be meaning that we are a "collection of chemicals" and no more. But this collection has abilities and one of them is freedom in genrating thought and behaviour. What you want to prove is not that we are chemicals, but that we are chemicals that don't have this ability. Good luck proving that ): |
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ah so you mean your "irrefutable truth" ... error is indispensable. god is dead |
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Good luck proving that ): I wouldn't want to prove that though and if I discovered it to be true, I'd probably destroy the evidence and then kill myself. The world would be a pretty (even more so) grim place without free will :-/ Not just unpleasent because of people's actions, but also hellishly boring and it'd be extremely demotivating. |
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wow, im a messed up individual who listens to electronica. what are the odds! |
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Yes, I've read Nietzsche. Don't think any of that is new to me ;) In this particular example I don't mean just my truth- I mean proven to a reasonable degree in what is "generally accepted reality"- that is, what most, educated, mentally "healthy" people agree to be true. |
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5:1 on apparently ;-) |
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it's interesting. You are religious, yet you don't believe/ or don't want to discover that destiny is predetermined? lots of religious people think your fate is already set... |
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A lot of people (often fundamentalist Christians) seem to confuse the concept of "God's Plan" as a loss of free will. The Bible makes a point of the fact that God gave us free will and it's precisely this free will that makes it possible for us to sin (because we choose too). I won that debate in a Christian Union I went to a few years ago by giving the fatalist a sharp dig to the arm. When she asked why I did it, I said, "Do you think that was part of God's plan?" "No", she replied. "Exactly, I did it because I have free will and I did it to prove my point. I chose to do it to show you that you are wrong." The point was wasted on her, but a few of the brighter souls got it. I believe God's "intereference" with affairs on Earth is fairly minimal (he hasn't overthrown any governments of late, despite what Bush claims ;-) and that he prefers to sit back and watch and lend a helping hand when we ask him to and it agrees with his plan. |
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i'm for the existence of freewill, but as you say some religious people tend to believe (not confuse!) that things are completely predetermined. which is what i understand you don't want to know about): which is fair enough.... ): |
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Who believes in God anymore? |
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Ceri JC! |
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so something more like "truth" as a/the social condition? anyway chaps . . . |
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and Bin Laden and Bush): I kid.. although it's true... |
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mappatazee ... its not so much the belief in god or not - its the shadow he casts, and the shadow we still live in which should be questioned. |
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sorry - i've been reading way too much Nietzsche recently .. he's brilliant though! |
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It's the idea that cast the 'shadow'. |
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I love the way he writes (wrote?) A brilliant man. |
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Certainly for other religions, belief in varying degrees of fatalism is an integral part of the religion (Seikhs, for example, believe in branching "Paths" through life), that's fine. But for a (biblical) Christian to believe there is no free will is a heresy and I will burn them at the stake for it! >:D //inquisitorModeOff Just out of interest, what do you base your belief on free will on? From my reading of philosophy it seems only to be mentioned in relation to a soul or higher conciousness of the individual (ie something we cannot yet measure/put into physical terms) or the reasons why we should/should not be fatalistic to varying degrees. Surely if we are just collections of chemicals, we have little more real "thought" than animals, or even micro-biological life forms? |
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Yeah, it's good stuff. (well, it's beyond good and evil, but you know what I mean ;-) I know a couple of really intellectual Christians (much brighter than me) who are fans of it. One of them who is training to be a priest says it "makes the most sense of all philosophies, if God really were to be dead." I think it's good that religious people can study things like that from an empathic point of view. Just like it's good for people to have a basic understanding of other religions (even if they themselves aren't religious). |
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please dont use the "C" word |
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well, first i have a religious background so i was edcated into it. but i don't dismiss it now. freewill doesn't require a soul that exists independant from the body. Free consciousness could be thought of as an ability to think creatively, actively, and individually. Other animals have brains, but they are less advanced, they can make decisions on behaviour, but they are not based on sophisticated thinking, not decisions in our sense of the word i guess. it's like what you did to that girl. i can demonstrate that i have freewill by simply doing stuff. And i can demonstrate active, creative thought by comming up with stuff!... but of course another person could say, well whatever you apprantely "choose" to do has already been set. You only think your are choosing. An 'illusion', as you said a while ago. |
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But can you show that your actions aren't the result of the precisely defined interactions and movements of all the trillions of subatomic particles in your brain, along with all the antecedant and external factors? |
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can you? also thought being indeterministic doesnt mean it is not freely generated. |
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Well where exactly is it that your mind deviates from physical laws of the universe? And how for that matter I'd like to know. What makes it special? |
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i don't have all the answers contrary to popular belief! but thought doesn't have to 'deviate' from physical laws. thought is generated through physical laws, our brains are wired up so that they have a 'special' or maybe not so apecial ability to generate thought actively. |
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I know this thread went off on a tangent but for the record I don't drink, smoke or do drugs. My life is one non-stop party let me tell you! |
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great to see someone is still trying to stick with the thread's glorious historical roots.... |
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I'm reliable like that |
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even religions can cause suffering, if you allow them to replace your inner self it seems anything can get in the way of your inner self (or soul?) being heard .. be that lifestyle, ideals, peers, you name it. im trying to uncover my own :) i think any type of music can mess you up. its the old rock and roll dream - it can invade the musician or listener with appealing images of self, when one lowers their defenses to it .. and ultimately it doesnt last |
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I agree with Ceri... it's all in your mind... I used to be full of paranoia and nervousness and all that... and very shy and shit... but over the years I got better control over my mind, and I'm a lot different now... I don't think I've been really depressed, but I used to have up and down periods where my moods would change fast... not hugely drastic changes, but still... and with effort, I got control of that... so I do think the solution is just controlling how you think... and yes, keeping yourself active! |
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im much the same .. except that my conclusion has not been so much control as discipline. maybe you mean the same thing .. control just has a subtly different meaning for me.. |
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part of the problem for a lot of people who have serious mental afflictions is that they can't control their thinking. did you actually take control of your mind, or did you just grow a bit older and somehow learnt to cope? I mean, how much of this "taking control" did you do actively? |
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OY! YOU! |
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First, I don't like your approach to fellow humans. You attack us by begging an answer with something that is not even a question. Than, you assign it to someone else's thread thinking that you will get away with it. Second, you socialize and make a distinction between you (plural) and them who are either depressed, use drugs or think that they are. Third, you repress your actions by saying such things as "I don't know" or "maybe". fifth, you make a conclusion without any premisses then you give us an apology after your evil deeds were done after that you act like someone else then you give such height to things you do that it makes me think whether I am watching a TV or a computer screen. Internet never lies, but you do. Am I depressed or do I use drugs? -what do you think answer is to that ??? |
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have you studiet rhetoric (spelling???)? |
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I don't think all my actions are predetermined, by thsi theoiry: if we could control every single piece of input into a child all through it's childhood then we could predict what it is thinking. Like said we put a kid in a bubble and controlled everything he saw+smelled+heard+touched etc for 20 years, when is it 20 we could predict how he could react when we asked him complex questions (like this one) and we could actrually be able to tell him what he is thinking. BUT I don't give a shit to be honest, there is no real answer I can attain so frustrating myself with a question which has yeilded no answers (but only irritation) to those before me. It's not a defeatist attitude - I just don't care about it enough to warrant spending hours of thought on it. Oh yes and I am an IDM head and I do a lot of drugs but I'm not depressed usually I'm actually really fucking happy. I'm really stupid though: I have to stress that :P |
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"have you studiet rhetoric " hehe.. no but it would be another great idea for a personal (if you were talking to me) |
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You'd also need to know his genetic make up too- although it's debatable how much, our genes have at least some influence on our temperement/actions. "BUT I don't give a shit to be honest, there is no real answer I can attain so frustrating myself with a question which has yeilded no answers (but only irritation) to those before me. It's not a defeatist attitude - I just don't care about it enough to warrant spending hours of thought on it." He he, that's why I shelved reading philosophy for quite a long time :D |
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yes, I was talking to you. yes, it would be a great personal! hahaha! Rhetorics is a nice subject. Everything is almost intuitive, so to not pass, you'd have to be very stupid.. even at university-level, where I took it last year. |
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hahaha! never stop reading philosophy! If it annyos you that you can't find the answer, you're going at it in the wrong way. I'm studying it, and what you have to do is think like "yeah.. it'll probably work out if I keep it in the back of my mind for a while..." |
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It should be a "fiery political rhetoric". hehehe... PANDA with political rhetoric |
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"hello, my name is Lee. Ima panda, who is very adept at fiery political rhetorics. I like long walks through bamboo-forests, and Intelligent Dance Music" |
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(oh, and.. Lee was actually a coincidence.. no relation to mr braindance) |
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Yes, it's always on the back burner- I just mean I stopped actively (getting books on it and particular works) studying it for a few years. |
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