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 (nobody)...and 354 guests Last 5 registered Oplandisks nothingstar N_loop yipe foxtrotromeo Browse members... |
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Not a big shock. I remember Rollingstone had a story about this back in '98 or so, I read about it back then. Interesting study in gender. Moral of the story? LEAVE OUR FORESKIN ALONE ========================== David Reimer, 38, Subject of the John/Joan Case, Dies By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS WINNIPEG, Manitoba, May 11 ? David Reimer, a man who was born a boy but raised as a girl in a famous medical experiment, only to reassert his male identity in the last 20 years of his life, died on May 4. He was 38. His family says he committed suicide. Mr. Reimer shared his story about his life in the pages of a book and on Oprah Winfrey's television show. His mother, Janet Reimer, said she believed that her son would still be alive had it not been for the devastating experiment, which led to much emotional hardship. "He managed to have so much courage," she said Sunday. "I think he felt he had no options. It just kept building up and building up." After a botched circumcision operation when he was a toddler, David Reimer became the subject of a study that became known as the John/Joan case in the 60's and 70's. His mother said she was still angry with the Baltimore doctor who persuaded her and her husband, Ron, to give female hormones to their son and raise him as a daughter. As he grew up as Brenda in Winnipeg, he faced cruelty from the other children. "They wouldn't let him use the boys' washroom or the girls'," Ms. Reimer recalled. "He had to go in the back alley." His sexual reassignment was then widely reported as a success and proof that children are not by nature feminine or masculine but through nurture are socialized to become girls or boys. David's identical twin brother, Brian, offered researchers a matched control subject. But when, as a teenager, he discovered the truth about his past , he resumed his male identity, eventually marrying and becoming a stepfather to three children. |
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dang |
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what the hell? ... did he really think he was a girl or that he was just "special"? was he fully castrated or just circumsized? didn't he ask questions about himself when he had those problems in school? |
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see, that makes me angry... so the mother was mad at the doctor for convincing them? Bullshit! She should be shot or something... |
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They actually constructed a VAGINA for him using skin from other parts of his body. It wasn't, uh, well made, though. It gave him problems throughout life. |
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! |
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Fucked-up story. |
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It is interesting insofar as it provides a decent rebuttal to the extreme advocates of the nurture position (a fashionable and progressive point of view to take back in the 70s when the John/Jean operation happened). It's now widely recognised that the nature vs nurture dichotomy is entirely false. It's like asking, is the area of this shape more due to its height or its width? It is very sad that he died. Allegedly Dr Money did some pretty fucked up stuff in his 'therapy' for Brenda, exposing her to explicit sexual imagery and maybe even making her assume sexual positions with her twin brother. It's pretty clear this can't be pegged as a gender study alone. And his twin brother developed schizophrenia and also commit suicide, so there may have been some underlying psychopathology there irrespective of the gender changing experiment. |
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(before he died) |
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You say that it was AFTER he found out that he was a male (or something) that his masculinity showed itself? Interesting. |
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What did he/she look like.... would monoid hit it?? ;) |
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This reminds me of the Wasp Factory. Sort of. |
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Quoted from the Rollingstone that I still have (Keith Richards is on the front, shirtless... scary)- ''What they did to you in the body'', John says now, ''is not nearly as bad as what they did to you in the mind. The psychological warfare in your head''. ''It was a pretty, lacy little dress'', Linda says. ''Joan was ripping into it, trying to tear it off, and I thought Oh God, she knows she's a boy''. ''On other visits to Money's office, the twins were particularly resistant to his request that they remove their clothes and inspect each other's genitals''. Sad stuff. |
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Marlowe: the masculinity was there all along, but repressed, partly as a result of the aggressive therapy of Dr Money. For example Brenda ripped off the dresses her mother gave her, she wasn't interested in wearing them. |
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No, he/she was a MAJOR tomboy, to the extreme, and there was obviously something wrong with him. He couldn't be reconditioned. ''In 1980, Joan had her breasts removed and a penis was later constructed''. |
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that really makes me sick... what a sad story... |
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yeah. I didn't understand how marlowe interpreted this. What a fucked a up story. Fucking doctors who are up to no go should be punished just like any other people who are up to no good. I'd rather see Bruce murdering them than commiting suicide. It's like fucking Frankenstein and his monster. I do think this is a shocking (and sad) story, but it was interesting to read. And yes, LEAVE OUR FORESKIN ALONE. Circumzition it's a fucked up procedure I can't believe it's still allowed. I mean cutting of any other part of your baby's body is not allowed (I assume) - so why should the penis, which is a really sensitive part be destroyed that way? Fuck it. Thanks for posting, Ophecks. |
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I think that, at the time, the doctors probably did think they were doing the right thing. They thought it would be the best possible outcome for the baby, at a time when surgical reconstruction of the child's penis would have been impossible (surgical creation of a vaginal cleft is, by comparison, a relatively straightforward procedure). At the time the prevailing view was that children are completely malleable at birth - partly a reaction against the eugenic horrors of Nazism, which of course held that some races were born genetically inferior. Dr Money obviously hijacked the case to further his own academic position though, and clearly acted less than ethically. |
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Key_Secret > yeah maybe... but it also has a religious meaning (well, ok that may not be an excuse, maybe more a justification), and, according to some people, some advantages (less risks of being contaminated by STDs).... excision is much much worse, and is also very very common in some parts of the world -_- |
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maybe if they could/had modified more than just the penis and hormones, he would have been totally like a girl... with other further body modifications, and brain modification too... (i don't know, maybe it will be possible someday) it wouldn't have made it any less wrong though, of course. |
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It's an interesting question isn't it though. In theory it should be possible, of course you'd have to change the genetic code in every cell of his body (so he had two X chromosomes instead of an X and a Y), and also undo all the gender specific brain development which occurs in the womb. Rewiring neural connections... we're talking 24th century neuroscience shit here. And, of course, it'd be an ethical landmine. |
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why feed hungty ethiopians when you can fuck with little kids' brains? |
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That's legal?! |
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JAroen > ...yeah, and there are so much things you could finish the sentence "why feed hungry ethiopians (or any other hungry people) when..." with =( this world is just fucking hopeless. |
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damn right makes you want to destroy the world |
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what if fucking with little kids' brains could eliminate mental illness? so much suffering could be spared. not that this gender bending shit has much to do with such an aim. |
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now... one (maybe interesting) question - what about transexuals, people who want a sex change? why are they uncomfortable with their own gender? do they have a mind of sex A influencated by a body of sex B and thus producing an ill-at-ease feeling? that would be too simple - maybe a mind of gender B but with parts of gender A... no, still too simple - maybe they have a mix-up between loving something and wanting to be something... no, mustn't be that - oh shit i don't know =P there probably are/can be many reasons and it very probably depends on the cases too. |
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I think that, at the time, the doctors probably did think they were doing the right thing. I don't think they can use that in their defense. I mean e.g. some of the nazi-doctors who also did horrible experiments must have believed in what they were doing. The fact that people are so attached from nature that they start believing more in culture (a made up [view of the] world) is a big problem, especially in science (where things can go REALLY wrong). The doctors were doing the wrong thing, and so is basically everone who circumsize poor boys. uzim: Key_Secret > yeah maybe... but it also has a religious meaning (well, ok that may not be an excuse, maybe more a justification), and, according to some people, some advantages (less risks of being contaminated by STDs).... I know you're not really defending the procedure here, but there are no fucking adventages in cutting off a natural, healthy, piece of your body. And does it matter if it has religious meaning when most religions are against nuditiy (so you can't show off your thing)? I am really sick and disgusted of the fact that it's still going on, and again what is to blame: culture or nature? culture of course. In the mood I am right now I am glad I am leaving it (well, as much as I can) for 24 hours! :) |
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Hugely complex topic, and there's really very little data on it. What we do know is that there are structural brain changes PRENATALLY which correlate with showing tendencies more typically associated with the opposite sex in later life (eg. being attracted to your own sex). i.e. to a (pretty limited) extent, it's possible to predict homosexuality (and presumably transsexual urges) before birth. Of course, a correlation is just a correlation. Not causation. |
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JAroen > yeah. so true. just one thing among others - our very dear ministers raised their own salaries by 70% (yes, seventy fucking percent). if instead of doing that, they had given this money to starving, homeless etc. people - they could have saved some lives. i've read somewhere also (but this reasoning must be flawed) that if the war industry just stopped for 6 days, it would have been enough to feed all the starving people in the world. etc. |
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Not everything nature gave you is necessary or desirable. Various parts of the body are effectively obsolete for modern humans... appendix, spleen, etc. |
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indeed, religion has been the cause of many wrong, and horrible things. and still is. that's why i said it wasn't an excuse really... i don't know if religions has made more good than bad or more bad than good to the world but that's another subject, and the current one is already complicated and interesting enough anyway ^^ |
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Uzim: yeah, the arms industry is a ridiculous money spinner. 30,000 people around the world die EVERY DAY of preventable diseases (and that's a conservative estimate). i wish people would put the terrorist threat a little more in perspective. A coronary heart disease producing cheeseburger is of more danger to your average american than all the terrorists in the world. But it's not a headline for the evening news is it? |
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The appendix is not obsolete... And doesn't the simple fact that it works (it does not rotten by itself) prove that it is useful? I mean organs and muscles that aren't used they just sortof "decay", don't they? Also, the removal of the foreskin makes you loose atleast 1/3 of the feeling in your penis... that plain fact makes removing it a really stupid decision (if you intend to ever have sex, or even masturbate for that matter). |
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also, most starvation isn't because there's not enough food, it's because the food is not distributed in a fair manner. corruption, war and cash crop exportation to the developed nations all deprive the third world poor of food. if it was distributed on the basis of need rather than economics and conflict, there would be an awful lot less starvation. fairly obvious but it always bears repetition. |
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The appendix is obsolete. It works in that it receives a blood supply which keeps it alive and prevents it from 'rotting', but it serves no useful function to the body. It's like having a third nipple. Does no harm, doesn't fall off, but doesn't do jack shit. Actually all of your nipples, if you're a man. Hmm. *thinks about ladynips* |
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the plain fact that humans starve today shows how unsuccessful the culture/society of today is. And not just for the fact that it's capitalistic. |
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If the world were a movie, it'd be Lord of the Flies |
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the world is just so wrong. i hate it! why can't people just be kind to each other. a pensioner raped for 20p. gangs of two year olds roaming the streets. governments lining up babies against the wall and pissing on them. multinational corporations poisoning our seas. it's just so wrong! |
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i thought that this ment like"boy raised while girl croaks" |
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Well, to make omelettes, you have to break eggs. |
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marlowe > but would you like to be an "egg"? |
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Don't we all? |
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