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I just finished reading the book , "Songs In The Key Of Z: The Curious Universe Of Outsider Music" by Irwin Chusid. The book consists of ~20 profiles of "outsider" artists, such as The Shaggs, Wesley Willis, Harry Partch, Shooby Taylor "The Human Horn," Syd Barrett, and tons of other unknown musical "visionaries." The concept of outsider music that the author presents is that these people have all made very strange music that was remarkably outside what people were used to, but they were wholly unaware that they were doing so. Example: the first profile in the book is of a 60s group called The Shaggs. They were a group of three girls from rural New Hampshire whose father decided should be a band. They were given pawn-shop instruments and very few music lessons and their father got them a gig playing dances at a local gathering place for youth. I've heard their legendary full-length "Philosophy of the World" and it's truly unique, and many would say that it's not in a good way. The drummer has no concept of rhythm and the song-writing is unlike anything else anyone has ever produced, quite literally. The legend goes that after the record was recorded, the father tried to hire a studio drummer to play in time with the other girls, and he couldn't do it. The songs' structures are just so irregular that even a professional couldn't keep up with them. The record went on to be extremely influential in underground circles. Rolling Stone named it one of the most important indie or alternative recordings of all time and Frank Zappa called it one of his top 10 desert island LPs. But the girls had no idea that they would have any impact at all. They weren't inspired by any avant-garde artists - they liked Herman's Hermits. But they've come to be this image of individuality and music that's not tainted by any musical rules |
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Anyway, this book has inspired me to record more material than ever in styles that I hadn't even considered before. |
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Now that is something I want to hear. |
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sounds like a book I'd enjoy... I'll keep an eye open for it! |
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has a full-length mp3 of the amazing song "Who Are Parents." Does this look like a girl who knows how to play the drums? |
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the name "The Shaggs" must refer to the fact that they got shagged a lot... their hair is turning me on! I bet Frank Zappa wanted it on the desert island with him just for the cover! |
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The name referred to the popular haircut of the time period. But, goddamn, they are hot. |
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this music is hot... I bet it would kill in da clubs! |
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Holy Christ, that is great. |
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I sincerely love this song. It's obviously performed by people who have no idea what they're doing. The lyrics are weird, especially considering their situation (pushed into the "music business" by their father), the drums are going at a completely different tempo from the two other girls, and the guitarists / singer aren't even playing in a time signature. They're just playing what matches the words. It's so unlike anything else ever recorded. About a month ago, I listened to this album almost exclusively for way longer than I should've. |
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i love "who are parents." that's definitely their best tune. i've got an instrumental run through of that track also. i dream of covering that tune (there was a shaggs tribute album but i've heard it's awful). who are parents? parents are the ones who really care who are parents? parents are the ones who are always there not sure i believe that the record was as influential as is claimed. virtually no one heard the record until it was rereleased by rounder many years later. |
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are you sure they are all girls? |
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it's HALLOWEEN it's HALLOWEEN it's HALLOWEEN why even DRACULA will be there (if you haven't heard it YOUR NOT XOOL |
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welp, ive listened to this a few times and i can say without a doubt that i think it is terrible. not that their intentions were bad. there werent any in fact, which is unique i will agree. i find it funny though, how the only thing that people value these outsider musicians for were how they couldnt keep a steady beat. and so everyone starts loving these people because its so "different", when they could have done it themselves easily enough. and if there are so few of these outsider musicians that get talked, i think the majority of regular musicians are just being incredibly lazy. yeah lets let the talentless make up for our complete lack of innovation, so we can namedrop it later on. great plan, majority musicians! i do like how there is no intention though. they were just doing whatever, and have no idea which is a concept that is intriguing to me. but that sort of logic doesnt add up to me in the long run, because anyone who has little-to-no music skill whatsoever can do that. we have billions of "outsider musicians", each as innovative as the next. why? because they cant play a damn thing. as negative as my post implies i do think this music as a place for the reasons that were stated. theyve influenced people, which is of course, important. but making such a big deal about it? actually listening to it and enjoying it because of its concept and not the precision? no thanks. i dont value them higher than my friend who is a crappy bass player. thats essentially like me saying im going to go back in time, and record cavemen banging on rocks and grunting vague tones because it was the basis of humans expressing themself through sound. i respect them for being a catalyst. but being one unintentionally because you cant write music isnt something to write home about. |
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wow, Ive never heard anything like this before! And I pray I continie to not hear anything like this ever again. |
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you get a high five from me, my friend |
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I could go into a long rant about why this music is worthless and insulting to me... but then Ill just look pretentious and blah blah blah |
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yeah. much like i did with my post :p |
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that is pretty cool. |
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let me rephrase... I could go on a long rant why the people who praise this, for all the wrong reasons, are full of shit. I wont blame the girls, as thier dad forced them into it. |
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they obviously thought they were writing good music - you think it's bad music, but you present this as if it is a fact. lots of genius (not saying this is genius, btw..) comes by accident, not every innovation is planned. have you any idea how hard it is to intentionally make something that's this weird? and I don't mean recording in parts, but playing this as a band. it's like trying to dance out of rhythm - VERY hard. |
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presenting as a fact wasnt my intention, its obviously just my opinion. sorry if it came across otherwise. if you dont agree, you dont have too of course. as i said in my post, this music has its place for the exact reasons that you just described, and that were described earlier. its unintention is what is influencing and intriguing. but as i said, i dont see how i should love it for this alone. i think its a crap song, thats all i was merely stating, im not trying to raise disputes or arguments or anything. i said what i thought and backed it up, you know? i dont agree with you on your last part though. and if i had the equipment around me id prove it to you. unfotunately i do not, so you win. and im lazy and yeah. you win 8( foiled! |
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yeah, but why does it make it good? and just because you wrote something... whatever it is... doesnt make it good. |
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I think it's good because I have never heard anything like it. and because the music itself sounds very sincere - it's not like it is because they were trying to be ironic, or smart in any way, to them this was good music. and to me that shows. it's a bit like The Langley Schools Music Project - . another weirrrrrrd record that I like because it also has an upfrontness that is touching. but in the end records like these are good to me because they let me hear a side of the musical spectrum I will otherwise not get to hear and I would be missing something - I just love to hea music in many different forms. |
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heaR. |
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i can understand the emotional sincerity... but you know, you can find emotion sincerity, coupled with technical accuracy. what difference is this from any other grade school concert? Those kids put thier heart into it. Why is THIS particular recording so important? You could argue that almost anyone who ever picked up an instrument, put thier heart into it... but it doesnt make it good. Its a concept. And concepts are nice and all, but they should be applied to music, not become the music. John Cages 4'33. Ok, I understand his statement, completely, and I agree with it. But as a piece on its own... it does nothing for me. Its conceptual. When someone uses silence in a song, conveying the same intent... but not centering it all around the idea, its much better. |
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I agree, this is pure shit. Anybody can pick up an instrument and "play" it. If there wasn't set musical structures, notes, etc... then we would not know what music is other than just sound. I'm with Zeus on this one. I could go off on a rant, but I'll just stop here. |
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yes, but what is the difference from a Bruce Springsteen record (to name something)? that all the notes are in the right place? is there a right place? is this then the difference between good and bad music? is music automatically less good because of lack of technical accuracy? what is technical accuracy? why is one thing seen as being accurate and the other not? why is ANY recording so important? all of these questions are raised by a record like the one The Shaggs made, not by the technically accurate ones. which already makes it a more interesting piece of work to me. I liked the music I heard. and I've tried to explain, but in the end it comes down to taste. to try to then bring it back to a concept is missing the point - as I said, I just liked what I heard, I do not like it because of a proposed concept. maybe you have heard tons of records like the one by The Shaggs, but I haven't. (4'33 was not about silence. it was about incidental sound surrounding people.) |
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wow, are we moving back in time now? are we returning to the days when one can tell what music is by what structure is being used..? god, I hope not. |
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yes, I think music is less good with out technical aspects. just like technically proficent music, that is soulless, is no good... it goes the other way too... all emotion, but no technicality. and you contradict yourself... you says its just about the aesthetic that you heard... but before you listed all the conceptual ideas, saying thats what made it interesting. you might not have read some manifesto somewhere and thought "ah yes, this is what the music is about" but you do realize what the appeal is... and the appeal in the end, is a concept, like you yourself stated already. and yes, the cage piece was also about the sounds around it, but it was also about the use of silence (ie not playing) I just focused on the silence part, because it had more relevence |
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ah yes, but interesting is not the same as good. I find lots of music interesting, but not necessarily good, in other words, something I would like to hear repeatedly and which has the ability to move me in some way. |
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wow this is the first musical piece that tickled me :) very odd sensation. those are weird looking guitars, too, btw. aandoenlijk. |
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I really like that song. I want to find the full album, now. It's on SoulSeek, joy ! |
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yeah, I think that music is pretty damn bad too... seriously... it's different, sure, but it doesn't mean it's good... |
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also doesn't mean it's bad. |
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not my cup of tea |
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I'm REALLY glad this has sparked discussion.. I think we can all agree that they are not technically capable on their instruments. And they're not very good singers, either. However, I think their music is worth listening to simply because they have NO IDEA what the norms are, they don't know what's expected of them, and they have no conception of how to write a normal pop song. But they tried anyway. They weren't trying to make an outsider record. They were trying to make it and eventually go on tour. For these reasons, I was really interested in hearing the record. After I heard it, however, I enjoyed it so much that I kept listening to it. I don't find their lack of talent abrasive, so I can stand listening to it. And I ended up liking the final product. Not because of its historical significance, but because I just enjoyed listening to the tracks. Do you think that technical proficiency is required for making good music? Also, plaidzebra, I've heard the tribute album. It's pretty hit-and-miss, but I really love the two versions of "Who Are Parents." It's my favorite Shaggs song and there are two extremely different, both really cool versions of it. |
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i wouldn't want to listen to only the shaggs, but their sincerity, uniqueness, rhythmic chaos and naive melodicism is at times totally pleasing. i thrive on variety. it's useless, however, to try and persuade someone that something is "good." objective experience does not exist, meaning that music itself cannot be good or bad. the goodness or badness are features of your own experience, not the music. i realize this is redundant for some people, but it bears repeating in this context. some people judge music according to their expectations, what they believe music should be. so they rule out music that doesn't fit those expectations. i won't say it's a mistake, but it is an unnecessary limit on your experience. this applies to other areas of life as well. one of the problems associated with a belief in objective experience is a tendency to become angry or upset when someone declares that the music one likes is "shit." i've never heard that shaggs tribute album myself, except for a few 30 second real audio clips, i really hope i get to hear it someday. how do you know if something is funny? are you laughing? |
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It pleases me to see people being creative with no real conceptions of how "normal" art or music is made. I saw an exhibition of outsider art at the whitworth gallery in manchester that just blew me away. Most of the people involved had serious mental illness or personality problems (often with obsessive-compulsive tendencies), and their work was just so heartfelt and raw. I'd only ever read about the shaggs, this is the first song i've ever heard. And i love it :D It almost reminds me of anti-folk stuff like moldy peaches or earky jeffrey lewis, but a lot more unselfconscious. Anyone else find it funny that this is a cultish chant about how great parents are when their father was obviously trying to make a quick buck by exploiting their "talent"? |
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*early, not earky. What the fuck is earky? |
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very interesting. Just like the idea of what kind of music would come out if noone had heard any music before. Yesterday I sat down and play piano for an hour or so, just float around on the keys and played at different tempos, I just float around. It was great, I really connected with the music... Repetition can create a certain emotion, and apart from repetition as in structural repetition or loops which can be used to achieve certain results, you can also repeate certain keys (on the piano) over and over again, but in different ways. I mean e.g. if you find six keys on the piano which together sound like what you want to work with; you can play them in different order, several at once, hit them different number of times, in different speeds, hitting the key hard / low... etc. This is sortof what some of Brian Enos music feels to me. Cause when changing keys you create something completely new , and thus it's easier to keep a feeling when just working with few different keys. Of course it's possible to create something in context (by changing keys), but that's another subject... |
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give me a break. "what is technical accuracy"?,etc. etc. you do realize when you ask these questions you set yourself up for 100 percent validity. hey man everyone is right! ITS ALL GOOD! sure im all for interpretations, and i think its important to remember that it is only such. but using that sort of logic to back up why you like something gets a huge check minus in my book. you could potentially argue anything and have it be right when you question the exact foundation of what its built upon. thats like crack theorists and their brilliant new "interpretation" of the universe, and hey they are right because they have set themselves up. their new universe doesnt even use standard math! its all wrong! "oh geez, we cant argue this guy. he's completely out of our league. and we should believe him too, especially in the field of mathematics and science, because, its all interpretive!" and wow isnt that easy. next time maybe we should like, never dispute anything at all. that way we can just cut the chase, you know? i understand theres a fine line. having two different opinions, it sometimes happens that the entire foundation gets questioned. but i consider this sort of stuff completely obvious and when used in a discussion it just creates vague crappiness upon which everyone can 10 thousand ways on, and what do you know, they are all right. but whatever, since the discussion is far beyond all that im calling it quits right now. yes i can understand why someone would think this is good, i dont think peoples interpretations were ever in question. and no i dont like it, but i respect the impact. hopefully people can accept that part of my viewpoint at least. ;) |
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I understand what you're saying. I totally understand why people would hate this music, but I'm glad you respect its influence and its unique place in the his tory of rock music. |
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no reason to get hysterical. I'm not saying we should not dispute anything, but not on false grounds like "technical accuracy" which mean shit all really. yet again this suggests there is some kind of objective way to rate music. I'm saying the technical accuracy argument is something that is still completely part of taste and has little to do with quality - this is the same reason why your analogy with physics theory does not work, this is a discussion about taste, not hard fact. nothing can be proven. using this as your startingpoint closes so many doors of possible music you could hear and enjoy, it's scary. |
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Agreed. A lot. |
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since when was i arguing interpetation IN GENERAL? i can argue the uses of it, but to argue that it doesnt exist, that would be stupid. of course "nothing can be proven" when you are dealing with taste. and your starting point opens up limitless doors. so one end of the opposite spectrum is better than the other? or wait, thats unfair to say because i dont even know you or your music tastes. im just basing that on some paragraphs, and thats kind of silly right? |
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that song is great! but for GODS SAKE people.... if you like this, and you want to hear somethign like this but longer, more agressive, and not made by little girls (no offense... i liked the song and im excited about downloading the album)... and made by real musicians playing an extremely unusual style (took the band a year of practice to learn to play in the style).... its a lot harder and harsher... anyways i could go on: Captain Beefheart - Trout Mask Replica one of my favourites of all time.... one of John Lennons favourites... Frank Zappa produced it, or played some role in it anyway (he was childhood friends w/ the captain)...... very very very good and really really really rewarding music if you can get into it hes a genius, and definitely an outsider...... |
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sorry i really have to put in a good word for captain beefheart here: from allmusic.com: "Trout Mask Replica is Captain Beefheart's masterpiece, a fascinating, stunningly imaginative work that still sounds like little else in the rock & roll canon. Given total creative control by producer and friend Frank Zappa, Beefheart and his Magic Band rehearsed the material for this 28-song double album for over a year, wedding minimalistic R&B, blues, and garage rock to free jazz and avant-garde experimentalism. Atonal, sometimes singsong melodies; jagged, intricately constructed dual-guitar parts; stuttering, complicated rhythmic interaction — all of these elements float out seemingly at random, often without completely interlocking, while Beefheart groans his surrealist poetry in a throaty Howlin' Wolf growl. The disjointedness is perhaps partly unintentional — reportedly, Beefheart's refusal to wear headphones while recording his vocals caused him to sing in time with studio reverberations, not the actual backing tracks — but by all accounts, the music and arrangements were carefully scripted and notated by the Captain, which makes the results even more remarkable. As one might expect from music so complex and, to many ears, inaccessible, the influence of Trout Mask Replica was felt more in spirit than in direct copycatting, as a catalyst rather than a literal musical starting point. However, its inspiring reimagining of what was possible in a rock context laid the groundwork for countless future experiments in rock surrealism, especially during the punk/new wave era. — Steve Huey" |
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Oh, yes, Trout Mask Replica is amazing. Yes. |
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Trout Mask Replica rules. I borrowed it from my dad a while ago and I LOVE it. There's a chapter on Beefheart in the book also. He was apparently a total control freak and sorta crazy. A lot of the vocals on the album are just words he had written and he recorded them into a mic without hearing what's being played underneath, which is why a lot of the vocals don't even come close to matching the amazing music. Recently, Beefheart's band the Magic Band put out a CD of rehearsals. I don't remember the name of the disc but I heard some of it at my college radio station and it's AMAZING |
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