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 (nobody)...and 525 guests Last 5 registered Oplandisks nothingstar N_loop yipe foxtrotromeo Browse members... |
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This thread is intended to pick up a rabbit trail from another thread. Estimated probability of one planet attaining the necessary parameters for life support: less than 1 chance in 10(215)(one hundred billion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion). |
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This is going to get ugly. |
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real ugly |
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Assigning probability to things that have already happened is a tricky deal; all these values look pretty arbitrary, and I don't think you really understand unless you have a good working knowledge of quantum physics: do you? |
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ah, the problem with this is that these numbers are basically guesses. no one, including scientists, know how common or likely any of those parameters are. all we know for sure is that out of the very limited number of planets we can directly observe, one one has any kind of life. |
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well attig, i told you about this... but you just wanna keep antagonising this stuff on an electronic music board full of aetheists, so... sorry. |
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does there have to be an explanation, or "the right" explanation? seems we do quite well, despite the precarious nature of our existence. |
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that's just it .. it is a music board yet it keeps coming up and not by me. So rather than have it come out in little snips made by people here and there, it may as well have a proper discussion. |
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All right fundie, if this 'intelligent design' is in fact science, what exactly is being measured by it? |
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That is: what measurement makes something definitely 'designed' by your argument? |
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I don't have a working knowledge of quantum physics, however I can compare what others have found, on any topic, that specialize in any given area and see what seems to hold up under scrutiny of peers in that same field. |
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well then, buckle up for questions you or i dont knwo how to answer. good luck. |
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aren't explanations essentially stories .. they all generally have some value, but its kind of like this really profound reaction to cognitive dissonance en mass. trying to explain away the uncertainty of it all? not that we can't .. but still ... |
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I'm going to get a haircut. in the words of governor schwarzenegger: i'll be back. |
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*not that we can't not ...* erm .. yeah .mm |
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... so either do it or don't start a new thread. |
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We use probability to make decisions every day of our lives. There is in fact no sure fire way for you to prove that you did not spontaneously appear five minutes ago and that all of you memories were implanted. Imagine that you walk up to a wagon that appears to have been painted red. How do you know it has been painted, rather than becoming red by some other means? Assume that there is no way to find anyone that may have painted this wagon. In such case you could determine that it probably was painted by observing brush strokes, testing the paint, etc. |
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You can make the same observations about our universe by observing the systems that are at work. The cell alone is a well organized factory with systems similar to those we use in our own technology. |
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enjoy! |
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The only thing that I am absolutely certain of is that my own existance is a damn rare occurance and consequently, i treat it as such. |
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What are the probabilities that it is either evolution or design? Why not a mixture of both - designed to evolve? Why not something else entirely? |
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there are other models out there, multi-universe, steady state, etc. |
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theistic evolution is the idea that God hit "Start" and walked away, and that would be to some degree a mixture of both. |
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I think the density of brown dwarfs alone is evidence enough of life |
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Okay... so 'intelligent design' is a science based on the measure of probability? At what point does an event become 'intelligently motivated'? If beat the odds and win the lottery, does this point to some kind of 'divine intervention'? I think not. No-- it's a necessary eventuality, just like life and the universe |
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It's like trying to convince orthodox Storkists that they came from inside their mommy's tummy. "Ewwww, that idea teaches people that they're no better than what comes out of someone's stomach - poop and vomit! No wonder children grow up to be immoral if you teach them the lie of pregnancy! People can only believe life has value if they know the Great and Noble Stork brought them!" |
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well what is evolution measured on? We have never observed macroevolution, only micro, and thus by scientific standards it is unscientific. How about necessary eventuality. If you were to take a stack of paper and a pen, how many times would one have to throw both against a wall to get a complete word, how about a sentence or even an entire, uninterrupted novel? |
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What's the difference between micro and macro evolution? |
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thats assuming time exists, god is just making it seem as though time passes! |
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microevolution are transitions within a species, better known as adaptation, whereas macroevolution would be the transitioning of one species into another one entirely. |
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How about necessary eventuality. If you were to take a stack of paper and a pen, how many times would one have to throw both against a wall to get a complete word, how about a sentence or even an entire, uninterrupted novel? There's no selective pressure in your analogy, and no inheritance. I don't think you understand a damn thing about evolution. Go read River out of Eden by Dawkins, then we'll talk. |
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Yea I agree that time is a created order. |
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We use probability to make decisions every day of our lives. There is in fact no sure fire way for you to prove that you did not spontaneously appear five minutes ago and that all of you memories were implanted. i agree 100%, however, i do not believe it gives me license to make arbitrary guesses about said probabilities. i have to concede that any possibility you put forth is possible, but we may disagree (strongly) on how likely it is. and we derive the likliness of certain events by known observation. |
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omg you guys are scholard greens |
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Bwahahaha! It's like trying to differentiate between micro glacier movements and macro glacier movements, and saying that since we've only seen glaciers move an inch a year, they never could have moved miles. |
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my girlfriend memorised the names of all these monkeys, she thinks that we came from monkeys. How is it possible to be so smart if your from a monkey? |
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I think you are talking apples and oranges. |
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So what I am getting from this site is that hybridization can constitute speciation? For example one can cross a cantelope and a honeydew for a delicious treat? |
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ah wait .. not involving hybridization ... nm |
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losing my religion |
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Suppose the allegedly very few evolved sources of intelligence in the universe tend to spread out information systems. We are just matter, a part OF the universe, yet we are "intelligent" and we now are starting to make metal and electricity "intelligent". Or suppose other chemicals can produce "life" other than the ones that compose us. Probably they only estimated planets with lots of carbon and water for that calculation or something. my entire lifetime of memories could be placed on a reel of magnetic tape. |
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For the record I don't have a problem with the idea that God created some animals out of others, seeing as how God created Eve out of Adams side it may lend itself to the idea. For evolution to work in an atheistic model, however, seems highly unlikely given the time needed vs. the time measured and events such as the Cambrian Explosion. |
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in your case, a 720k floppy even |
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I give you a year and a half, tops, before you're an atheist. You think too much. |
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evolution is based on things like the fossil record and genetics. Science and scientific method can show genetic relationships between species and can predict the time of speciation between organisms based on things like mitochondrial DNA. so it's not completely unscientific. But it is true that it cannot really be tested. For example, you cannot easily compare an evolving species with a control group species in any reasonable time frame. also, creating a control group species would be virtually impossible even if time was not an issue. this is why biologists generally agree that evolution is technically not a theory but rather, it is an explaination of observed factual data. |
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There is no account as to how the animals were created just that they were in fact created. |
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Speciation has been induced in fruitflies. Case closed. |
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Fleetmouse, it is actually interesting that I spent most of my teenage years an early 20s as either an atheist or some form of drug influenced panthiest. I became a christian not even two years ago. |
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we are not evolved from monkeys. evolution has never claimed that. Instead, evolution states that monkeys and humans were derived from an common ancestor. |
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the design was to evolve |
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