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what is this thing with some IDM artists making albums with many short tracks? (ofthen the albums are short to). I feel like they aren't putting much effort into their songwriting. Making one album with only [or mainly] short tracks on it - it seems like the artist lack good ideas, or don't know how to develop his/her ideas into something nice. Anyone who's experienced from writing songs knows good tracks aren't short - as when you get a good grip of an idea or a theme - music needs time to develop, and if it's good; that listeningtime will be very enjoyable (meaning it will be a good thing the track is long). The hard thing about writing music is to keep a feeling [or a theme] throughout a track, and/or developing it as much as possible. And it takes (track)time to do so. And especially if you're going to write music with a lot of variation -- you need to give the music time to establish a theme. And good themes, or strong ideas for a theme, make good tracks. Probably most of you will disagree on what I've written, as some of you are more into "IDM", then I am. But I listen to all kinds of music, and what I usually feel when I hear several short tracks in a row on an album is; * If I like it: I think like 'that should have been developed more. * if I don't like it: well obviously, I think the album would be better off without it. If the ideas are good from start, the artist can develop them into a very nice track. If the track cannot be developed, perhaps it's not a very good track, and the artist should consider starting over. Everything does not need to be released. hope you get my point. peace. discuss. |
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Can we discuss post lengths? |
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It's braindance. You've got a good point though. Sometimes tracks feel like they've only just started before they stop. Some short ones makes sense but all short ones is just cheating. I was making a track the other and in a couple of hours is was 7 minutes long! |
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=( I thought it would be an interesting discussion. and this topic is actually related to IDM. |
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yes, you get my point. But the thing is, if that artist who created that track, had waited until the track was fully developed : I would have, if I now like this short track, have loved it even more! Even if it developes into something weird, it's interesting to see where it goes. |
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well, sometimes i prefer short tracks that get to the point rather than tunes with long boring intros and stretched out endings.. however, certain tracks are so beautiful that i could listen to them for ages a la "my father my king" by Mogwai which lasts a whole 22 minutes.. |
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well tracks can be too long to. I don't like that, it's like explaining a complex movie too much in the end - you do want to do some of the work yourself. A good musician works on a track til that special length is found. It's really like editing a movie, you just keep the vital parts; parts which contribute to the story, or to the flow/feeling. |
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"It ain't over just keep pressin' rewind." -Eve a lot of the best idm albums have been under 50 minutes, including a lot of rdj's releases.. as for short tracks, sometimes it's perfect in their concise form and dragging it out would ruin the song.. i mean can you imagine 6 minutes of "goon gumpas"? |
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"RDJ Album" is a short album, but it also has longer tracks. My previous post, I think, explain pretty good how I feel music should be made. |
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I mean "Goon Gumpas" is one of the, if not THE, shortest track of the album. |
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Pixies sprring to mind, they could crram a grreat song into a shorrt amount of time. |
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indeed it does! i agree with what you're saying. |
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ill agree with that statement |
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yes. I really like the pixies myself. But I just don't think the length/construction of the track is thought over. And also, rock is different from IDM. If an IDM track is too short, with variation to it, in many times it's not long enough to establish a theme. While a rocktrack, which is another type of music, can be very good and just around two minutes. The same is with Goon Gumpas. It builds around a theme - it hasn't got too much variation. |
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Sorry. I was too lazy to read it all. But I've read it now, and its evident that I'm too lazy to develope my tracks as they average at about 2 minutes length. heheh. I dont mind track lengths personaly. |
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well if you feel they are complete, and every second is vital. you've made a good track on a theme. But if a track is good many times are just determined by the choice of theme from the begining (or during the creation). |
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if they all fit together to form a coherent album then that's the length they should be |
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I think most IDM trracks can't be too shorrt because like you say it takes time to develop a theme. So i agrree on that, but therre arre some 'one offs' that benefit frrom being shorrt. |
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But then I suppose it's down to the feelings of the creator. If they feel they can't take the song any further then they won't. I think in some cases it is laziness but in others it's not. It's a weird one to judge but when they have so many unreleased tracks why only do a 30 minute CD? They could easily fill it up with other tracks. I, personally, feel that an album shouldn't all be one particular style if they can't fill it. It's a kicker when you get an album and it's really short. I've got singles from the early 90's that are 25 minutes worth of music! |
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themes, what I meant in my last post, are not just decided, making ONE decision... eh... perhaps there is a better word for it. But I guess it's the 'feeling' of the parts and layers alone and in context... sortof... hehe |
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i'll agree; more enjoyable tracks are generally the longer ones - something that absolutely shits me is a song that just gets started, then it ends. shits me so much. |
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with idm i'd say that longer ones are better. but other types of music, they can fit 30 tracks in under 45 minutes and i don't really notice. the songs NEED to be that short. |
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Sometimes a song can overrdo it. I like it when a you hearr a bit of magic in a song like twice, and you love the song forr it. If they did it time and time again it would wearr thin. |
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yes, you're making an interesting point here... If they [the creator] feel they can't take the song any further then they won't. If you feel the track is complete; you've succeeded :), but if the feeling is more like "I can't do anything more with this" - it's a different story. If you're a musician (or an artist in any field) you know when you've worked on something - it hasn't got to do with time - and you feel it's done. You don't even want to touch it, because it's complete. More will make it less. But the same thing goes; if that feeling is not there, something is missing. Most tracks you hear aren't perfect, but they are worth a listen :) And I just feel like I'd rather have one super-duper track then 10 "ok" ones. Cause super-duper feelings last longer, and "ok" feelings are not enlarged by more "ok" feelings... I think in some cases it is laziness but in others it's not I think so many, especially IDM, artists have done it, it's like accepted for the genre. [don't wanna make posts too long here... so I stop for a sec] |
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Although that said the tracks I've uploaded are quite short :-/ |
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a reply to me? what line are you refering to? |
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If you feel the track is complete; you've succeeded :), but if the feeling is more like "I can't do anything more with this" - it's a different story. True true. But! It's very hard to tell the difference sometimes though. I've "finished" a track and left it alone. Listened to it a couple of months later and just started thinking about things that could be in it. And I just feel like I'd rather have one super-duper track then 10 "ok" ones. Cause super-duper feelings last longer, and "ok" feelings are not enlarged by more "ok" feelings... Well i'd rather have 10 super duper ones but that's just greedy. You're right about super duper feelings. Windowlicker is a good example of that sort of track. I can still remember what I was doing, where I was, who I was with when I first heard that. Ask me the same about 4 and I couldn't tell you. |
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Nah, that was a reply to me :) |
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I think our little discussion has touched another interesting subject: When is a track complete? I'd say it's complete when the artist say it is done. But This does not mean the track is perfect, or the that it's best possible version of the track. It could perhaps be improved, but the artist might not be able to do it. I mean if (s)he would - (s)he wouldn't have called it complete... |
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Unless they arre lazy. Some arrtists agrree that therre trracks arre neverr complete and they change and evolve on tourr. |
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Unless they arre lazy. ------------------------------- Some arrtists agrree that therre trracks arre neverr complete and they change and evolve on tourr. |
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yes... read my previous post, |
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When is a track complete? Never. It's only abandoned :P Nah, what you say is right. In the eyes of the artist it's finished. But if it's an album song then it goes to get mastered. Then that's something else added in way. Is it complete then? |
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perhaps they released them too early? more likely, they might have felt they were complete at a certain point (or felt they couldn't do anything else). And when they go on tour they think like "I could have done this with that 'theme' instead", so they do it. Remixes is healthy I think. They are like "personal" covers, if you make them yours I mean. you develop as a person, so you making one track at one time, and remixing it yourself later - it will sound different. |
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But if it's an album song then it goes to get mastered. Then that's something else added in way. Is it complete then? do you mean, if something is added, like mastering, to a track, was it complete before; or is it complete after the mastering? that was a good question. because it's different after the mastering. Also: * if you listen to one track, you will experience it in one way. * If you listen to the same track in a context, like listening to the other tracks on the album together with that track (and that track is not the first track of the album). For each new track, you carry with you a certain feeling the previous track you listened to created. |
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dude all of those little interlude tracks that BoC do... they are absolutely perfect. To lengthen them, would be to ruin them. Ive made a playlist on my comp, of just their interlude tracks. It adds up to a normal CD length, roughly. Short, simple, to the point, and damn beautiful. Rettic AC is kind of short (chiastic slide- autechre) but I think if it was longer, it would loose something. It just depends... what do you have to say, and is it something that needs to be said again? |
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"interlude tracks" are different. they are only listened to in context, and they carry a certain feeling to them, as they are sortof transports between longer tracks [atleast longer than interludes]. that feeling, they carry, ofthen give them more 'power' than what they would have as single tracks... I mean there are real nice interlude tracks, and they really make nice contribution to some albums. But then they are not meant to develop something on their own (if they are interlude tracks)... they are just transports in my opinion (otherwise I do not call them interlude tracks)... |
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you and all your technical names :-P |
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Sometimes a song can overrdo it. I like it when a you hearr a bit of magic in a song like twice, and you love the song forr it. If they did it time and time again it would wearr thin. I agree! I love it when it's just a small part of the track you like, and the other part of the track (which is most of the track[time]) is still interesting enough to make you really enjoy the whole track. Thoose magic moments, eh :) Like now I'm working on a track that's interesting (to me) for just a brief period of time. But I still have to get everything together; and the middle part - I have a hard time fitting it inbetween the first and last part =/ |
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do you mean, if something is added, like mastering, to a track, was it complete before; or is it complete after the mastering? that was a good question. because it's different after the mastering. Exactly what I mean. Also: * if you listen to one track, you will experience it in one way. Also very true. It's dependent on emotions experienced at the time as well. * If you listen to the same track in a context, like listening to the other tracks on the album together with that track (and that track is not the first track of the album). For each new track, you carry with you a certain feeling the previous track you listened to created. Are the orders on the albums important though? Or is it just the fact that they're in the same style that's important? Sorry. I'm asking more questions than we started with here. |
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hehe... I hope I use the terms in a way that you can understand the... my english is ofthen fuzzy on this board. ;) |
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Anyone who's experienced from writing songs knows good tracks aren't short... That's a little ridiculous, I completely disagree with that statement. There are plenty of fine songs out there that are well under 2 minutes. |
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first of all: Sorry. I'm asking more questions than we started with here. why are you sorry? you're making me happy, as I think I benefit from your perspective on this subject. We're still on the subject, and I like your questions :) I wish more people would add their ideas to this discussion, if they had something to add! Also very true. It's dependent on emotions experienced at the time as well. yes of course. In one way I think we can only limit the feeling/liking of a track to what the track actually is in itself, or in the original album it appeared on; as that is what the artist is responsible over. But it's true that e.g. if a track is featured in a commercial or played in a movie, we might like it more or dislike it, depending on how it's used (because of that we relate to that when we hear the track the next time). I guess this is why some stupid tracks make it big commercially - some people just experienced them when they felt good about something else. Like a good music video can sell a bad track. Are the orders on the albums important though? Or is it just the fact that they're in the same style that's important? I think style goes before order... but it depends on what style! I mean style has bouth got to do with "sound" and tempo (and maybe some more things). E.g. "drukqs" is pretty similar, sounding, on all tracks [they fit together on the album, I think], but the tempo varies a lot! My point here is: it wouldn't work aswell (I think - I haven'tr tried) if all fast tracks where in the begining of a CD and the soft in the end. They need to be mixed together. Also, on drukqs I have to say the softer tracks works good bouth as tracks on their own [they feel complete] but yet they feel like transporters between the longer/faster tracks. But of course, they aren't that short, and haven't got much variation. I must just add, I do not think 'not much variation' is a bad thing, it's a neutral expression to me. Can be good, can be bad; i |
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What a thrread. 10 points Key :) |
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first of all, I never mentioned what I think is 'a short track'. though maybe I should have. the first post I wrote was more to get people into a discussion, I then think I explained pretty ok ;) that I agree on what you're saying that the length really isn't the issue. Instead, it's the construction of the track. Starting this post I was curious what you fellow members thought about short tracks (and of course it's a too big group to make, since you can't say you either like or dislike short tracks), and if you felt they are 'complete or not' (I mean, I perhaps should have used examples of tracks, but I think you still understood what I meant. I didn't mean 'all' short tracks, as you can't make that group, unless you're talking about tracklength only - and we're not). |
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hehe... yeah... a lot of posting :) |
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as far as short albums go - top of the pile has to be the excellent "blood guts and pussy" from the dwarves. Around 12 songs in under 13 minutes. The awesome "lets fuck" is my fave - "old enough to breath, old enough to bleed, old enough to pee then she's old enough for me! LETS FUCK!" CLASS! |
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is that some kind of advert for Mulholland Drive in your avatar? never seen it before; where is it from? |
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i think its a french poster.... |
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what's up with icct-hedral: all nice variations in a row and suddenly a repeated theme is faded in another repeated one and then it ends, i dont get that, thats bad variation. i hoped there'd be a better version, because it's my fav afx! the best theme variation i've heard is on speedy-j's public energy: 8 tracks of variations on a theme (or seven: 2-8), very classical, good. on the other hand: length is sometimes overrated: i thought for a long time that i wouldnt be complete as a composer (humbly said) until i'd written an over 10 minutes track. but that's so been done, writing a good short track is hard too. (i usely try to not put more ideas in a post then three so i think you're now getting a information overload) |
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