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thankfully we are not all 14 year sold and rely on all forms of media not just TV and computers |
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thankfully i'm not you, a stupid fuck. i like flea, but a fucking comment frrom him would help, not just a link to rreporrts we all know of anyway. |
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LOL Red, you really are a joke, stop being so fucking aggressive with people with different views to yours! <--- finally leaving this thread to die |
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Do you seriously think the allies are intentionally setting out to kill and injure civilians? Of course it's a mistake if that happens. The idea that disarmament by the UN would bring about an end to the death of Iraqis at the hands of Saddam's regime is frankly ridiculous. Internal oppression in Iraq isn't related to WMD, it's there to preserve the regime. I don't doubt the UN sanctions have led to death among Iraqis, however, if it wasn't for Saddam Hussein there would have been far less deaths. Don't forget that between 1991 and 1996, the period in which most deaths related to this occured, Saddam refused to accept the oil-for-food programme which would have greatly reduced the suffering of his people. Saddam's position in Iraq was absolute and unassailable long before the first Gulf war. A regime that can survive a war that does nothing but kill a million of it's own people hardly needs UN sanctions to bolster it's position. |
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that will have gone rright overr rreds head. |
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why am I stupid for having a differing opinion than yours..flea has left the board temporarily until the war is over as it has been deemed that all discussions on war were to be supressed see thread War on War and check out my link earlier in this thread pertaining to the US control of news and then tell me that I am stupid |
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you stupid because up to now i havent stated an opinon that contrradicts with yourrs if you look back. so "why am I stupid for having a differing opinion than yours", is a stupid thing to say. |
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i dident even say a worrd to you and i got this "thankfully we are not all 14 year sold and rely on all forms of media not just TV and computers " aggrresive pointless rreply. |
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this is crazy, i agree with Red and Flea... the war is a joke, its INTENTION might well be sincere, but its going to shit as we speak... my point... tea! and BOWIE!!!! |
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you mean non-combatants, soft targets etc?The allies have gone intentionally to secure the oil field, everything else is secondary, and if the civilians get in the way of the access to oil, yes they will be injured and killed, and yes civilians will be injured and killed if the bombing raids in the major cities are going to be intentionally carried out in zones where majority of the population is concentrated, as they have been doing since day one in Baghdad. Saddam's position has been absolute and total in Iraq prior to the Gulf War thanks only to the US and UK, who continued to arm and support him through out the the war with Iran when he WAS carrying out atrocities both inside his own country and in Iran. They gave him the weapons of mass destruction and turned a total blind eye when he used the left over from the Iran war on the Kurds. Post the cease fire in 1991, American fighter jets hovered overhead and observed as the Iraqi gunships ruthlessly crushed and destroyed the civilians and rebels in the south that arose only because of the constant urging of the US and the allies. The point is simple, when Saddam has been carrying out all of these atrocities right under the US and UK's noses and was being given not only permission and encouragement but also the means and weapons to do so, why the urgency to liberate the Iraqi people now? I will tell you why. It is because due to the sanctions US and UK has cut it self out of the loop for the oil, while France, Russiaand China had initiated and secured massive deals for the Iraqi oil. Seeing the worlds second largest reserves slipping out of their handswhile the worlds largest(Saudi Arabia) becomes increasingly unpredictable and headstrong is the only reason that galvanised the Bush administration into this action. Use your head and the truth will follow. |
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Actually the reply wasnt agressive, and I was grinning ear to ear whenI replied. And I also know that you are anti-anti war because you have posted enough times about how your brother is anti war and you are being contrary just because you dont like to think that your brother is right.A typical 14 year old attitude. |
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nope you are just being true to yourself and stirring again...how about making that your last post if you dont want to war threads to continue? |
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>my point... tea! and BOWIE!!!! hee hee c00l...how's the missus? |
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good good, we just got a car... the commitment is scary, being only 20 and all... but its a nice car... honda civic :) hows you and yarr missus?? :) |
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rred my brrotherr is an example of ignorrant people opposing a warr without rreal basis forr opposing it. its nothing to do with not wanting to think my brrotherr is rright. anyway, rred, im not arrguing with you any morre. |
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The American CIA was instrumental in Saddam Hussiens seizure of power as well as helping him pinpoint threats to his leadership which he will duly assainate and eliminate as you may be well aware that Ba'ath party that Saddam is the leader of came into power as early as 1963 the CIA called it's favorite coup and comments we regard it as a great victory said James Critchfield then the head of CIA in the middle east. When Saddam came in power in 1979 he was regarded by CIA as America's man. Saddam has a great deal to thank the CIA for according to his biographer Aburish "he can thank them for brining the Ba'ath party to power, for helping him personally, for providing him with financial aid during the war with Iran, for protecting him against internal coups. America did all of this because Saddam is considered to be the protector of its client Arab states from Irans revolutionary fundamentlist virus, that Saddam Hussein was given everything he wanted almost up to the day he invaded Kuwait in August 1990" It is interesting that you mention that the period between 1991 - 1996 has been mentioned because in 1994 the Senate report documented transfer to Iraq of the ingredients of biological weapons, botulism developed at a company in Maryland licensed by the US commerce department and approved by the US state department. Anthrax was also supplied by porton down labs in Britain, a government establishment. |
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hey guys good morning (US anyway). Do you all think that war is just if done for the right intentions? The same way that a nation has a police department to control domestic situations (we don't let murderers and thieves run around on our streets) there needs to be international forces to control those situations. The question is is it just? I think that the face value liberation of a people and overthrow of a tyrannical regime that has in the past and would most likely in the future be a threat to the allies of democracy is in and of itself a good thing. That being said, I think there are very sketchy things related to both this war and 9/11. There always has and always will be conspiracies within political institutions, bankers, secret societies and religious organizations. History has a script but that doesn't mean that the good that is done in the meantime should be overlooked. There is good coming out of the immediate result of the war, but what comes after that? |
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I learnt to drive in a Honda Civic, good fun...why not...a little debt neverreally hurt anyone...you will survive...just meet the payments yarr he's fine, he says he will do your remix and email you |
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recommend he read WAR Plan - Iraq by Milan Rai and you should read it too...things are bound to get heated at this time so dont worry...I'm not |
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wicked :) |
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That the US has supported Saddam Hussein in the past isn't in dispute. Alliances change, the world changes. Just because you support someone at one time doesn't mean you're bound to them forever. I have no idea what Senate report you're refering to and I'm not sure what point you're trying to make with it. |
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There will also always be people who see conspiracies where none exist... |
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that report tells off biological weapons being transferred to Saddam while the sanctions were on and he was supposedly a lot of his own people. >Alliances change, the world changes if this is all its about why dont we all cut the bullshit about saving Iraqi people once and for all huh? The only reason for this invasion is economic and poltical it never had and never will have anything whatsoever to do with liberation of Iraqi people. btw if there were so many concerns about the Iraqi civilans the sanctions wont have been carried out to such a ruthless degree and neither would they have been bombed with depleted uranium and cursing them with radio active wastelands for the next 20000 years...so lets just cut all the bullshit okay...the facts and the history doesnt lie no matter spin you want to put on it This war is about oil THE END |
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what i want to know is... will america destroy THEIR weapons of mass destruction after they have disarmed everyone else of their weapons of mass destruction by using weapons of mass destruction themselves *breathes* |
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"that report tells off biological weapons being transferred to Saddam while the sanctions were on and he was supposedly a lot of his own people." Did the US government transfer the weapons to Saddam? Err, no. I don't understand the latter part of your sentence. I've said before that I don't have a clue what the US motivation for going to war is, at least not the reasons that are no doubt expressed behind the closed doors of the White House and wherever. Maybe Bush does want the oil, which is unlikely seeing they're trying to get oil proceeds put into a UN administered trust, but maybe he does. Whatever US motivations, they coincide with why *I* think we should be at war in Iraq. It's true that the fact and history don't lie, you would do well to acquaint yourself with more than the facts and history that suit your own viewpoint from time to time. |
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No, because there's no reason to. Incidentally, what evidence do you have that the US intends to use WMD? A lot of people use the argument that Iraq won't use any WMD it has, why not apply the same presumption to the US? |
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i think thousands of missiles are 'weapons' and what happened to baghdad as being 'mass destruction' |
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Well if you're going to stretch the term to those lengths then there's far more countries than the US to worry about. |
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was killing is the missing word...I lack rest >Did the US government transfer the weapons to Saddam? Err, no. I don't understand the latter part of your sentence. Yes of course they did that is exactly what I am saying....we are talking about the same time period of time here. ..source of information US Senate Committee on Banking, Housing and Urban Affair, US Chemicial and Biological Warfare related dual use exports to Iraq and their possible impact on the health consequences on the Persian Gulf War May 25, 1994. See also US Department of Commerce, Bureau of Finance administration, Approve licences to Iraq March 11 1991 as you will notice the start of the date of transfer is post Gulf War ok? >It's true that the fact and history don't lie, you would do well to acquaint yourself with more than the facts and history that suit your own viewpoint from time to time. I have no idea what you meant by that. The history the way it suits the US, UK capitalist point of view is a bit hard to avoid. Its on every TV channel and every newspaper, every day of the week and every part of the Western World you cant help but be aware of it. I wonder how much effort it takes to buy the propoganda that all of us are basicially swimming in and then to reguragitate it at every opportunity when someone else tells you something that wasnt in the news because they chose to keep it from you |
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What are bunkerbusters, daisy cutters and bombs made of depleted uranium? they are considered to be near nuclear and radio active and thus against the UN charters. Not to mention as teapot has said the Mother of All Bombs |
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There seems to be regular use of selective history on this board. For instance, people blame the deaths of Iraqis on US sanctions without acknowledging that Iraq didn't accept oil-for-food until 1996. Another example would be how people keep bringing up how the US helped arm Iraq without mentioning how those claiming the moral high-ground, mainly France and Russia, did just the same. I can't comment on the references you cite because I can't find the relevant Senate or DoC documents. |
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The generally accepted definition of a wepaon of mass destruction is a nuclear, biological or chemical weapon. The US won't use any of these in Iraq. Depleted uranium weapons are not weapons of mass destruction. They are at their most dangerous when striking their target, at which point the uranium is turned to dust and can be inhaled by people in the immediate vicinity in quantities large enough to do harm. Of course, those people would probably already be dead from the effects of the weapon anyway. The dust is then dispersed through natural means, such as wind and whatever. Dispersed particles offer little health risk as they wouldn't generally be inhaled or ingested in sufficient quantities. They simply don't cause mass destruction. |
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The other weapons you mention do a lot of damage in a relatively small area, this doesn't equate with the effects of what are generally accepted as WMD. |
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my dear here are the facts: Saddam had very good reasons for rejecting the oil for food to feed his 22 million population as follows "14 April 1995 UN Security Council Resolution 986 authorises Iraq to sell $2 billion worth of oil every six months to buy humanitarian goods. 30 percent of this is diverted to compensation for countries, companies, and individuals who suffered as a result of the invasion of Kuwait, 13 percent is channelled to Iraqi Kurdistan in the north.Just over $1 billion is available for relief in the south/centre every six months. All monies from oil sales are held in a UN controlled bank account in New York - Iraq can apply for them to be spent on humanitarian goods. No money is to reach Baghdad directly. Does this paltry token sound fair to you because it surely didnt to a humanitarian panel set up by the Security Council in 1999 that reported that Iraq had slipped from "relative affluence" prior to 1991 to 'massive poverty'. The panel criticized the Oil for Food program as inadequate to remedy a dire humanitarian situation' that 'cannot be overstated'. The panels members took the remarkable step of attacking their sponser charging that the Iraqi people would not be undergoing such deprivations in the absence of prolonged measures imposed by the Security Council. Children were the main victims with the infant morality rate soaring from one of the lowest in the world 1990 to highest. France and Russia have been making trade deals with Iraq...a country with a large oil supply would want to defend itself from potential invaders. It would be unreasonable to think otherwise. the references are your problem |
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Oh really read and weep, I knew I did 15,000-POUND FUEL AIR EXPLOSIVES (FAEs): In military jargon these are referred to as "Daisy Cutters." The Foreign Military Studies Office at Fort Leavenworth says "A fuel air explosive can have the effect of a tactical nuclear weapon without the radiation."7 There are many different varieties of FAEs, but they typically consist of a container of fuel and two separate explosive charges. Dropped by parachute from a huge MC-130 Combat Talon plane, they detonate just above the ground, creating a wide area of destruction.8 The first explosion bursts the container at a predetermined height, disbursing the fuel, which mixes with atmospheric oxygen. The second charge then detonates this fuel-air cloud, creating a massive blast that kills people and destroys unreinforced buildings. Near the ignition point people are obliterated, crushed to death with overpressures of 427 pounds per square inch, and incinerated at temperatures of 2500 to 5000 degrees centigrade. Another wave of low pressure—a vacuum effect—then ensues. People in the second zone of destruction are severely burned and suffer massive internal organ injuries before they die. In the third zone, eyes are extruded from their orbits, lungs and ear drums rupture, and severe concussion ensues. The fuel itself—ethylene oxide and propylene oxide—is highly toxic." Up to 300 civilians died 20 miles away from the cave complex in Afghanistan where Osama bin Laden was thought to be hiding at Tora Bora when U.S. planes attacked. They suffered blast trauma— ruptured lungs, blindness, arms and hands blown off, almost certainly from FAEs.10 CLUSTER BOMBS: These have been used extensively in Afghanistan by the U.S. Terrifying and deadly, each bomb is composed of 202 bomblets, which are packed with razor-sharp shrapnel dispersed at super-high speed over an area of 22 football fields, ripping into human bodies. These weapons are prohibited by the Geneva Protocol." Civilians were inevitably killed throughout Afghanistan by these ill |
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illegal and dreadful weapons. On one documented occasion, the U.S. bombed a mosque in Jalabad during prayer and while neighbors were digging out 17 victims, additional bombs killed more than 120 people.'2 Historically, between 5 and 50 percent of these bomblets fail to explode initially, lying around the countryside as mines that explode with violent force if touched, tearing their victims to pieces. Tragically, the bomblets are colored yellow and shaped like a can of soft drink, and therefore attractive to children.15 The food parcels containing peanut butter, Pop Tarts, rice, and potatoes dropped throughout Afghanistan by the U.S. are also yellow and the same size and shape as the munitions. (Some of these food drops themselves went astray, destroying houses and killing more people.14) Human Rights Watch estimates that over 5000 unexploded cluster bomblets may be littered across Afghanistan, adding to the hundreds of thousands of mines left after the Russian—American war of 1979 to 1989.'5 Afghanistan is currently the most heavily mined country in the world. |
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BUNKER BUSTERS: Dropped from B-i or B-2 planes, these 5000-pound behemoths are made from the gun barrels of retired naval ships and are so heavy that they burrow 20 to 100 feet into the ground before their high explosive materials detonate. Most are laser guided, but some use Global Positioning satellites for guidance.20 CARPET BOMBING: This means dropping tons of bombs from B-52 planes at a 40,000-foot altitude: high enough to protect pilots but too high to protect civilians. This is indiscriminate bombing, and the pilots have no idea on whom their bombs are landing. In 1969 carpet bombing used in Cambodia by Kissinger and Nixon during the Vietnam War induced the total destruction of the ancient irrigation system and water supply and most of the rice-growing areas of the country and, as a secondary effect, caused the absolute disintegration of Cambodia's culture. The bombing runs were called "breakfast," "lunch," and "supper."21 |
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I'm not remarking on the references either way, just saying that as I can't find them, I can't comment. Not an unreasonable position to take, in my opinion. If France and Russia have been making deals with Iraq then it's obviously no problem to you that the US would have traded with them also, so it's clearly not an issue who Iraq has or has not traded with in the past. Glad that's sorted. $1 billion certainly isn't much, but then it again it's better than a piss in the wind. It's worth noting that resolution 986 required the UN Sec-Gen to report back to the UNSC after 180 days with reference to the progress of the programme, including the sufficiency of the revenues with respect to meeting the humanitarian needs. I'm not saying the scheme was great and I'm not denying what happened to the Iraqis during that time, but it's hard to escape the idea the idea that some people seem to think this is all the UNs fault, when at no time since 1991 has Saddam Hussein sought to meet his obligations under UNSC resolutions, knowing that doing so could have seen the sanctions lifted years ago. Further point, even after the export ceiling was lifted, Iraq still didn't make full use of the programme either in selling oil to meet it's needs or fully putting to use the proceeds, with some $2 billion languishing in escrow. |
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Yep, all dreadful weapons. None of them nuclear, chemical or biological, none of them being aimed at civilians in the Iraq war, none of them WMD. |
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depleted uranium is nuclear,radioactive and chemical...it qualifies as being both nuclear and chemical... you are just now disagreeing for the sake of it...what is mass destruction? I dont know about you but if I was in favor of thousands of innocent people getting slaughtered I would at least keep track of the least most basic fact regarding these issues like depleted uranium for gods sake. You must living on a fluffy cloud 9 somewhere in this day and age to be saying the depleted uranium is harmless and if it is harmless are you even aware that Saudi Arabia and Kuwait insisted on having their deserts cleaned up by specialised anti-radioactive agents as soon as the war concluded |
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there is plenty of evidence that civilians were maimed in Gulf War 1 and they already have in Gulf War 2 and boasted about repeatedly in Afghanistan, they are not WMD because the term WMD is an American invention and these horrific things have not been classified as that because they want continue using them and if you read the effects of these carefully they are actually of equal devasation of the first 2 atomic bombs ever used of course the devastation caused by the current nuclear weapons starts from 100 times that of the bombs dropped on Japan to a 1000 times |
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More on the effects of depleted uranium, from the International Atomic Energy Authority: "Regarding exposures to DU, there have been studies of the health of military personnel who saw action in the Gulf War (1990-1991) and during the Balkan conflicts (1994-99). A small number of Gulf war veterans have inoperable fragments of DU embedded in their bodies. They have been the subject of intense study and the results have been published. These veterans show elevated excretion levels of DU in urine but, so far, there have been no observable health effects due to DU in this group. There have also been epidemiological studies of the health of military personnel who saw action in conflicts where DU was used, comparing them with the health of personnel who were not in the war zones. The results of these studies have been published and the main conclusion is that the war veterans do show a small (i.e., not statistically significant) increase in mortality rates, but this excess is due to accidents rather than disease. This cannot be linked to any exposures to DU." |
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I can hardly be said to be disagreeing for the sake of it when the negative effects of depleted uranium are clearly disputed, not least by the IAEA. |
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I have no dispute that civilians have been maimed by various weapons, what I dispute is that this is intentional. |
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you are starting to sound like someone from The Insider (film about the tobacco industry) This International Atomic Energy Agency is the very same that keeps ensuring that emissions from the nuclear plants are perfectly safe right in the densely populated civilian areas |
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Well, maybe you disagree but I reckon it's a *good* thing that the IAEA are keeping an eye on emissions from nuclear plants. Just one point about the birth defects page. You present it as if it's conclusive that these are DU victims. For the sake of balance, the comment of the page author should be noted: "Once again, it is important to stress that DU is not 'officially' recognised to be the sole contributor, and one must always bear in mind any possible propaganda activities of the Iraqi government in drawing attention to cases that have other, more common, causes. My own opinion is that DU is a catalyst, magnifying the problems brought about by poor nutrition." |
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you know, its all fucked up |
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This war was planned a long time ago, but not in a galaxy far far away - its chief protagonist is a former (so he says) cokehead, who is a failed businessman, a corrupt politician, who only went into politics a very few before becoming president (HE doesn't need to know anything, he just reads from prepared statements and does as he's told)... so, an ideal background for leading the most powerful nation ever into the tricky middle east situation. I'm sure Arabs across the world love him for his skill in diplomacy. |
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Richard Perle, "This is total war we are fighting a variety of enemies out there. All this talk about first we are going to do Afghanistan then we will do Iraq, then we take a look around and see how things stand. This is the entirely wrong way to go about it. If we just let our vision of the world go forth and we embrace it entirely and we dont try to piece together clever diplomacy but wage a total war our children will sing great songs about us years from now" This psychotic character is one of the chief advisors to George W Bush. You might sincerely believe they are not out to kill civilians but you are being duped. Total war equals total annihilation. Its time to wake up cos there will be no room for excuses later |
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what the fsck |
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