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why not they are civilian victims of the Gulf War...geezzzzzzzzz You mean poor nutrition caused by the sanctions and the inadequate Food for Oil program you are so fond of as inavailabilty of essential chemotheapry required for those afflicted with cancers caused by the DU what you mean is IAEA was good at coverups in the Gulf War - Gulf War Syndrome which I could scan but its rather long as well as about your local friendly nuclear plant belching xray smoke all you are trying to do is not working...there's plenty of information besides the misinformation you are feeding on |
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I agree bush has fscked up |
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chek the latest press interview of him. theres some very worried people out there.. bush could barely speak the coalitions finding it tough all of a sudden. |
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LOL, you probably think I'm just as misinformed as I think you are ;) Actually, that's not quite true, I just think you're exceptionally biased towards sources of information that back up your view and refuse to acknowledge anything that brings that into doubt. As for civilian victims of the Gulf War, I have to say once again that there is no intention to deliberately target civilians. Your logic on that is all fucked up. |
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its too late to be speculating now |
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danbrusca have you always been this stupid? |
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"If France and Russia have been making deals with Iraq then it's obviously no problem to you that the US would have traded with them also, so it's clearly not an issue who Iraq has or has not traded with in the past. Glad that's sorted." big difference being that neither France or Russia have initiated a "moral" war against Iraq. |
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i am sorry but you are so misinformed you dont even know about very public views of the people whose side you are taking- an example here is an excerpt from US Secretary of State Colin Powell's book called My American Journey where he is expressing his views about the Kurd and Shi'ite rebellions that ended up with so much of the atrocities and bloodsheds that are being now used as one of the cases against Saddam, all carried out right under the US's noses after Bush senior repeatedly urged these innocent people to stand up against Saddam He said "Neither revolt had a chance nor frankly was their success a goal of our policies. President Bush's rhetoric urging the Iraqis to overthrow Saddam hoewever may have given encouragement to the rebels. But our practical intention was to leave Baghdad enough power to survive as a threat to an Iran that remained bitterly hostile towards the US" As indicated so clearly by this statement not only are the Americans killing the civilians directly with full intent and intention (the original intent of Shock and Awe was to use 3000 bombs and missles in one day more than any used in any war during the entire war in recent years I will let you do the calculations as to how many civilians had a realistic chance of surviving that) but also on any opportunity they get they have and will orchestrate slaughters of civilians indirectly as they did in this case Not a single thing you have raised has caused a moment of doubt |
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btw the way I have been quoting netural and right wing opinions to you and refused to dip into the so called kooky radical left wing opinion pools |
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yak yak yak |
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danbrusa: If France and Russia have been making deals with Iraq then it's obviously no problem to you that the US would have traded with them also, so it's clearly not an issue who Iraq has or has not traded with in the past. Glad that's sorted." qrter says: big difference being that neither France or Russia have initiated a "moral" war against Iraq. and also the difference is while the US was imposing the sanctions and causing much suffering to the civilians of Iraq which according to Madeline Albright when asked if the death of Iraqi of 1/2 million Iraqi children were a price worth paying for sanctions "we think the price is worth it" The US and the UK had no problems transferring the acutal biological and chemcial weapons through the back door while they would not allow the much needed food and medicine for the Iraqi children through the right channels. It just proves what I have been saying again and again Iraqi civilians are no more than just blips on the computer screens to the coalition forces, a so called perfectly acceptable collatreal damage. I find this unacceptable |
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flea is no longer on this board I am so feel free to tell me about your fetishes involving long haired tibetian farm animals (yak) |
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Oh Dear!! Yet another "accident" they really need to train these Coalition helicopter pilots not to crash into mountains and ground and other helicopters. I thought that sort of thing would be part of basic training. SO these Pilots are far too good to be shot down by the enemies but too dumb to keep flying the damn things without crashing?? U.S. helicopter crashes in Afghanistan, six dead: WASHINGTON, March 23: A U.S. Black Hawk helicopter crashed in Afghanistan today, killing all six military personnel on board, U.S. Central Command said. "The crash was not the result of enemy action," Central Command said in a statement. The helicopter was conducting a "medical evacuation mission," it said. (Reuters) (Posted @ 02:50 PST, Monday) |
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This is to show that Iraqis are not exactly singing and dancing in the streets cheering for the American Soldiers. Iraqis Search Baghdad Allegedly for Pilot : BAGHDAD, Mar 23: Hundreds of police and security agents searched for a possibly downed coalition pilot Sunday, shooting into the reeds and shallow water alongside the city's Tigris River. They set fire to the brush in some spots, and small boats patrolled out in the river. The U.S. Central Command in Qatar and the Pentagon said there were no reports of any coalition aircraft being shot down or a pilot being missing. Al-Jazeera TV, a Qatari-based satellite channel, said one Western pilot had been captured in Baghdad and another was being sought. There was no confirmation from the Iraqis that they captured a pilot in Baghdad. Security men armed with Kalashikov assault rifles swarmed to the river after witnesses reported seeing parachutes fall alongside its west bank soon after air raid sirens had sounded in Baghdad. Crowds and television cameras gathered quickly, and hundreds of civilians tried to join the search but police and security quickly blocked roads leading into the area. Meanwhile, Iraqi Vice President Taha Yassin Ramadan claimed an unspecified number of Americans had been captured and would be shown on television. Coalition officials initially denied the claim, but later Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said some U.S. soldiers might be missing. He noted that under the Geneva Convention governing prisoners of war, "It's illegal to do things to POWs that are humiliating to those prisoners." Ramadan, who was guarded by at least a half-dozen heavily armed soldiers at his news conference, also denied speculation that Iraqi President Saddam Hussein had been wounded by coalition attacks. The official Iraqi News Agency said Saddam met with top advisers today. Earlier in the day, Iraqi officials said 77 civilians had been killed and 503 wounded by coalition air strikes across the country. Information Minister Mohammed Said al-Sahhaf |
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Iraq says it has downed five planes, two helicopters: BAGHDAD, March 23: Iraq said today that it had shot down five coalition planes and two helicopters, and had stopped the advance of invading troops near Nasiriyah and Najaf in the south of the country. Military spokesman Colonel Hazim al-Rawi told a press conference that four planes were downed over Baghdad and one over the southern city of Basra. One helicopter was shot down over the main northern city of Mosul and the second over As-Samawa in the south, he said, without providing any further details. Whereas, U.S. Central Command today denied statements by Iraq that U.S.-led coalition planes had been shot down. "We categorically deny that they shot down any coalition aircraft," said U.S. Marines Captain Stewart Upton, a spokesman at the Qatar command headquarters of U.S. and British forces in the Gulf. (AFP/Reuters) (Posted @ 16:25 PST) |
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lucky no fucker can be bothered to read that shit |
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A question does the Geneva Convention really apply in an illegal war being waged without the consensus of both the UN general assembly and the Security Council and against the wishes of majority of the nations of the world |
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you are reading it hence no links provided this time |
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as I was saying about the indiscriminate bombing of Basra while the ground troops languish outside the city Basra and the use of WMD cluster bombs by the US/UK forces.... Information Minister Mohammed Saeed al-Sahaf told a news conference in Baghdad that cluster bombs had killed dozens of people and wounded several hundred in Basra. "Did you see what those criminals did in Basra when they used the cluster bombs? Seventy-seven people were martyred and 366 were injured from these banned weapons," Sahaf said |
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Give me bottom lines. I want two bite-sized summaries; one from the each of you. Unlock those horns and compose yourselves. |
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welll... yeah.. but i am bone-idol. not a real excuse though, i've been told... |
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:P |
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sorry mate all war talk is now confined to these threads its a friendly discussion due to actions taken by Ceri which led to flea being banned. Its all now lumped into one undecipherable mess with a general title about pilots. That was why flea tried to start threads called prowar and antiwar so some sense would be made out of all these opinions flying back and forth people are entitled to their own thoughts and feelings on the issue not to be lumped artitary thread that dealt with only issue of the war so far that i.e inexplicable frequency of accidents involving coalition helicopters The main issues here are the targeting of civilians, WMD - American use of it, the case for and against this war at this particular juncture of history when there were so many opportunites before to remove Saddam but instead Saddam was constantly being fed WMD from US/UK sources so that they could turn a blind eye to his use of these weapons first against Iran and then the Kurds, Depleted Uranium and the WMD that US and UK have been actively using which are equally destructive with long lasting effects not unlike those of chemcial, biological and even nuclear weapons. US propoganda as whole as instrument of war and on this thread that keeps claiming that the planes that were shot down were actually accidents hence the title of this thread flea posted. Either too many of these pilots are incompetant or the command centre is just not telling the truth...is the issue that started this thread |
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Dobbin - flea is saying that final score by Australia in the finals is that insane or what? |
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they banned flea..? i am in shock :( pure shock :( i'm glad i live in finland - the news seem to understand that most of the info coming out the area is war propaganda. they have a dude to comment on the news bits in the studio. anyway this war, as all wars, make me sick, especially with all this suspicious stuff going around it. *puts on conspiracy freak hat* good to see you here still fighting reddy :) |
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taa mate I hope it means he will get on with learning some Java, but he tells me he will be doing a remix for teapot at some stage, I will keep him busy We get mostly propoganda here, although the odd thing slips through the net Its the psychology behind the war logic that makes me sick, that us and them mentality...the force feeding of information to give instant gratification that prolongs terrible suffering that makes me sick |
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do you think it is a start to an even more unstable, warry era? that concerns me so much. i have my free essay test soon :o i hope i can write about something that does not have anything to do with all this.i am sure anti-warness does not make a good grade :) |
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They bomb it and then US gets the oil and Iraq pays for the href="http://xtramsn.co.nz/business/0,,5086-2232808,00.html damage being caused by the US...sweet eh? Yea right the oil belongs to the people of Iraq |
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Ignore that last post it should read... They bomb it and then the US gets the oil and Iraq pays for the cleanup - yea right the oil belongs to the people of Iraq |
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probably the prescence of troops for an indefinite period which will infuriate the people of Iraq and the Middle East whose own income is going to be syphoned right out of their grasp. Iraq had been doing blackmarket oil deals with Jordan to the US administrations chargon too right avoid the antiwar issue with the course...it gets you the wrong attention from the powers that mark your assignments even though it usually goes down well with students if you are doing presentations. I used child porn on the net and got a favorable response from my tutor by putting a human face to the children abused in the international sex trade and the lack of legalisation in NZ to deal effectively with child porn traders |
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Entirely unrelated to Iraq's large debts to those countries, of course. |
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Assuming you were right and that the US and UK were deliberately setting out to kill Iraqi civilians - something for which there is no evidece at all - why would they do it? Given the arms at their disposal surely they could have done a 'better job' of it by now? |
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I don't particularly give a fuck as to wether something is left wing or right wing. Neither has a monopoly on truth and lies. |
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Note, the sanctions are UN sanctions. You can't attribute blame for them solely to the US. Don't forget that the sanctions were UNSC approved, no vetoes being thrown about by the french and russians there. |
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"Crowds and television cameras gathered quickly, and hundreds of civilians tried to join the search but police and security quickly blocked roads leading into the area." Maybe I'm way off the mark, but if a bunch of soldiers started firing into the River Derwent here I'm pretty sure it would attract a crowd. |
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To answer your question, yes, the Geneva Convention does apply regardles of wether or not a war is legal/illegal. The Convention makes no distinction between legal and illegal war. Such a distinction is made at the political level. |
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The side issue of this thread is people passing off opinion as fact. |
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To cover your points.... I have provided plenty of up to date evidence here on this thread of the US's and the UK's involement in war crimes in Iraq and the Middle East It is very clear who passed these resolutions the UK and US, Kofi Annan is a puppet handpicked by the US to carry out their bidding, it was the US/UK decision to go to war before Hans Blix could give his report on the progress made by Iraq and an attempt to force a second resolution for war would have only been vetoed by France, Russia and China and was not supported by the Security Council who wanted more inspections. The US has vetoed more UN resolutions in Israel nearly 40 times more than any other security council member. The US was the instigator of these sanctions backed strongly by Tony Blair who loves placing sanctions, in fact it is his favorite word...sanctions, sanctions sanctions like civilians and other POW from Camp Xray displayed on camera for the world to see in cages that I would expect to see animal rights activists going nuts if animals put in them, forced to shave off their beards, constantly sedated, psychoanalysed, tortured and interrogated and when the Geneva conventions were brought up they were laughed off by the US saying they were unlawful combantants not POW. Well US/UK soliders fighting in an illegal war are also illegal combatants hence not POWs so the Geneva Convention should not apply to them either The people were also civilians at the riverside were all armed and waving guns and shooting at the river I witnessed this on the evening news, there was no doubt at their anger at the Americans who are bombing their city of Baghdad and they want revenge for their loved ones that have fallen Duh I have provided news reports that provide evidence of my case as per Senate reports, newspaper reports, and excerpts from books, websites set up for the purpose i.e thefirethistime.org from many sources including right wing views like this little gem the hidden hand of the market will never work without a |
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hidden fist McDonalds cannot flourish without McDonnell Douglas, the designer of the F-15. And the hidden fist that keeps the world safe for Silicon Valley's technology is called the United States Army, Air Force, Navy and the Marine Corps" Thomas Friedman, NY Times, March 28 1999 The people I evidence my observations on are the movers and shakers (hawks) of Bush's administration that make such words into truths. They make the US foreign policy that dictates the outcome affecting the world. The Iraq war is an oppotune time for the Right Wing to advance capitalism, globalisation and to oppress people. Like I saw today on DW Tv an excited Shell Oil company spokesman asked about the prospect of oil in Iraq commenting about how it would be cheap to produce. How long is it until the US sets its greedy right wing agenda to the State owned oil companies of Iran, with its claims of WMD's....the US government right wing campaigns are funded and the Senate is lobbied by arms manufacturers, car manufacturers, oil companies etc...the Right has much wealth to gain indeed |
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1. Contrary to your belief, you have provided no evidence of war crimes. 2. It hardly matters if the US instigated the UN sanctions. France and Russia didn't veto them. If you wish to attribute thousands of deaths of Iraqis to UN sanctions you cannot deny the complicity of those countries. 3. I happen to agree that the US is violating the Geneva Convention with respect to Camp X-Ray. 4. Again, the Geneva Convention makes no distinction between a legal and illegal war, so both sides in Iraq should be conduct themselves within the Convention. No doubt we could debate the legalities of this war for decades. Article II, Chapter I: "In addition to the provisions which shall be implemented in peacetime, the present Convention shall apply to all cases of declared war or of any other armed conflict which may arise between two or more of the High Contracting Parties, even if the state of war is not recognized by one of them." 5. It's blatantly untrue to say the civilans by the Tigris were all armed. In fact, there were very few arms present. I have no doubt there's anger in Baghdad with regard to allied bombing, but it's a little more complex. For one, there's a natural tendency for people to develop a siege mentality and rally around the leader in these situations, as happened in London in WW2. The views of average Iraqis are likely to be biased against the US and UK at this stage, after all most of them only have access to Iraqi media. 6. I don't deny you've provided lots of sources etc, but you consistently refuse to acknowledge any source that differs from your view. |
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Oh right, a Shell executive expresses an opinion and that's supposed to be evidence of US policy. You really need to come up with some real evidence. |
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Don't you think saddam's looking well? |
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Hehe, yeah I do actually. We haven't seen Tariq Aziz in a while, perhaps he's looking a bit pale... |
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If I looked as good as him when I'm 70, I'd be happy. Maybe being a tyrannical leader is the elixir of life. |
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Perhaps he uses Oil of Uday? |
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relax danbrusca the Iraqis have said they will treat the soliders in accord with the convention unfortunately while in Bashra civilians are getting hit with illegal cluster bombs while they have lost their water and power supplies... everyone I saw there were armed with guns and firing into the air...saying the Iraqi people and the Middle East people are not armed in general is a little bit naive its like saying there's no such things as the NRA of America - to say the least even flea has an Ak47 at home in Pakistan, its like tribal rule I quoted Colin Powell, Richard Perle and Madeline Albright all members of Bush's administration, makers of US foreign policy talking about their foreign policy. The Republican administration election campaigns are funded by arms manufacturers such as the lobbist Lockheed Martin, McDonnell Douglas automobile companies such as GM major shareholders in LM, oil companies and what used to be Enron have a say in the balance of power that makes up the Senate, these companies have a lot of power unlike you think members of these corporations have a huge say in the US economic policy what are your sources? Mainstream media apart from I have a source as I said that the IAEA you supplied has covered events in the Gulf War pertaining to DU as my source is a little long to post...but here is something to support mydebate The World Health Organisation (WHO) has steadfastly resisted studies on the health effects of exposure to uranium 238 following Desert Storm, Bosnia and Kosovo. The reason for this is that an agreement forged in 1959 between the International Atomic Energy Agency which actively promotes nuclear power and the WHO stating if one agency wishes to carry out a study that affects the work of the other, mutual agreement is required. The IAEA has never agreed to such studies The UN subcommission on human rights has condemned uranium munitions as weapons of indiscriminate destruction. As they fail: 1. The temporal test their effects continue after the war e |
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ends 2. The environmental test they have effects beyond those necessary to achieve miltary objectives 3. The humanness test they have effects beyond those necessary to achieve miltary objectives 4. The geographical test the partilces can travel to non-combatant countries |
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This should clear up the mystery after this quote of the day (visualise a scene like Wag The Dog and hullo there's pictures of actors on the presentation screen) Tommy Franks "This is not a platform for propoganda but a platform for the truth" News report Saddam injured: report By Our Correspondent WASHINGTON, March 21: US intelligence sources say Saddam Hussein was seen being wheeled out of a Baghdad residential complex on a stretcher after the complex was struck in "decapitation attacks" by the United States , the ABC News reported on Friday. Eyewitnesses saw the Iraqi leader being taken from the complex on a "gurney, with an oxygen mask over his face," Thursday morning, the officials told ABCNEWS. Sources said there was clearly a US observer nearby, watching the complex. When asked on Friday whether Saddam may have been injured in the attack, White House spokesman Ari Fleischer said he wouldn't address rumours, but added ambiguously, "I don't know how Saddam Hussein is feeling today." Intelligence sources also said there has been a significant lack of communications between Saddam and his military structure since the airstrike. They are optimistic that the attack injured Saddam, though they are cautious about the extent. The US officials believe that one or both of Saddam's sons were also in the complex when it was struck. The attack was "massive, catastrophic," the Washington Post's Bob Woodward told ABCNEWS. |
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I just thought you all might find this interesting. Troops Fire On Own Again 26/03/2003 06:52 AM IRN Coalition troops have accidentally fired on their own again. A US F-16 fighter plane fired on a Patriot missile battery, 48 kilometres south of Najaf in southern Iraq. There were no casualties. |
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