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 (nobody)...and 234 guests Last 5 registered Oplandisks nothingstar N_loop yipe foxtrotromeo Browse members... |
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I meant that seeing people in the middle East as barbarians and our violence as legitimate you are perpetuating a double-standard. |
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no. people in the west do not throng the streets, jumping up and down with glee, when american forces wipe out thousands of innocent civilians (as happened with sep 11). in fact, look at what our society did to the vietnam vets on their return. there was no pride taken in what they'd done in vietnam, at all. |
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(that was obviously meant to read 'as terrorists did with sep 11) |
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Maybe. But you're anger is not directed at our governments, rather the oppressed peoples of third world countries. What they do is a response to not only the violence of western military forces but the violence of sanctions (as Meho pointed out) and the system itself. The IMF and World Bank force the governemts of these countries to cut welfare, education and healthcare to pay for loans to western governments and banks. this leads directly to premature death and poverty etc. The actions of these militants is a response to this. they respond in this way because they see no other way to fight back. |
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Core: american people will not jump up and down in the streets with joy but will e-mail their government and ask it to bomb somebody etc. It's just on a different level. West is being "civilised" but does much more damage than any of "barbaric" peoples out there and all with quiet, reasonable rhetoric. That's worse, IMO. |
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let's return to the simple question someone posted earlier: would western societies support a military group / authority that would make a videotape of a captured muslim journalist being beheaded, and send the tape to his country and loved ones? no. they've made a terrible mistake, because no matter how desperate they are to get our attention, no matter how desperate they are to get their point across, and no matter how desperate they are to frighten us into submission, all they have done is remove ANY tolerance or compassion for themselves or their cause, that once MIGHT have come from ordinary people in the west, like myself. |
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true. They also get half of the world cheering and mobilising against america, dude. Now, don't get me wrong I don't hate americans more than I hate arabs or afghanistanians or anyone else, a lot of things important to me are of american origin, but you have to see it realistically, american foreign policies are imperialist to the max and it's no wonder that those unable to strike back on the same level revert to symbolic gestures. |
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well, my point is this: I am mostly disgusted that the people in those countries AREN'T disgusted by these atrocities. does this make sense? |
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Core: you make a lot of sense and i know what you want to say. But likewise, why are americans not disgusted with the fact that they levelled Yugoslavia 3 years ago, killing thousands of people and ruining the country completely (and I'm using Yugoslavia here just because it's an example i'm familiar with more than with others, not out of patriotic feelings that I don't have)? Just because they were explained that all of that was for a good cause: democracy/ freedom/ human rights (delete if necessary). Similarly, these people say that killing and decapitating someone and taping it for the world to see is for a good cause: Allah says so. Who are we to say that our sacred values beat theirs? If we do, that's where we are racist. And don't try reverting to common sense because it doesn't apply here. |
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by 'sacred values' you imply a doctrine, but i'm not talking about religion at all. i'm talking about basic respect for human life. if even half of america was allowed to see what their forces did in yugoslavia, the american people would NEVER have supported the action. THAT is my point. |
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when you say "basic respect for human life" you imply that there is such a thing in all cultures and there isn't. Even in the west, in greek and romanic cultures (that our cultures descend from) slavery was a common thing, not to mention slavery in the North America that was abolished when? Not even 150 years ago. So the fact that we (as in you and me) are disgusted by seeing somebody brutally murdered has little to do with "basic" features of our personalities, it's much more a result of the way our societies developed over ages. But that does not necessarily make us profoundly better than anyone else, methinks. And it's maybe right that, faced with the atrocities done on our behalf, most of us westerners would cringe and ask our leaders to stop whatever they are doing, but that's exactly what I was saying: our "civilised" societies have "civilised" ways of mass murdering, conquering and inflicting pain and "civilised" ways to get their voters' support to do so. BTW, I suppose a lot of arabs/ muslims etc. are also disgusted with what we are talking about... |
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core, what happened? Too much of my wisdom put you to sleep in front of your keyboard? Ahh, it happened before... |
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when you see the footage of people celebrating the collapse of the wtc, or the beheading of an american citizen...you have to consider the psychological climate these people live in...they've lived a miserable, oppressed life...and have been convinced by their leaders (whom im sure they are convinced are heros) that america is entirely responsable (which in a way it is) ...so when they see thw wtc collapse...they arent thinking of humans dying...theyre thinking of their people achieving a small bit of retribution...i guess you could compare it to the end of star wars where the death star is destroyed... its all propaganda really...the fact that they were being shown footage of the destruction of the wtc on tv is no different than the fact that we were shown footage of them celebrating its destruction... unlike in star wars however, there is no defined good and bad in this situation, or any wookies for that matter |
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Ha, ha. Bloody Star Wars fans. |
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heheh...sorry...im not that even that big of a fan i just couldnt help but to be reminded of all the rebel alliance people and ewoks jumping around at the sight of the death star exploding... |
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wayout, you have a point. And that star wars comparison is funny... |
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Yeah, those little furry fellas (and lasses) did look pleased as punch when those innocent contractors were killed on the Death Star. |
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