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I hope you're not all racists in Holland. I despair when I hear the crap you're coming out with. Catholocism is also homophobic but I don't hear anyone calling for curbing the migration of Catholics. This is racism plain and simple. |
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jonesy, you dont live here so you don't know anything about what's going on here. Dutch people i think have a fear for extreme right and stuff because of WO II, so they dont want that to happen again. If you turn on the tv here you see pictures of his house, full with flowers and stuff. People are really shocked by his assasination, and if he was a racist ppl wouldn't have felt so bad for him. |
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Racists would. I don't have to live there to see that a white politician was using race hatred to carve out a political career. His statements regarding muslims were racist. Who is he or you to say people can't go and live in Holland? People leave countires that were ravaged by effects of empire and that have descended into civil war because of western countries like mine and yours. If your family were massacred in Somalia you would seek refuge in another country. |
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? your talking shit here where did you get the idea that he was a racist or used racism to build up a career. Holland is one of the smallest country's in the world, and we allow the most immigrants to live in our country, so we aint rasistic or anything like that. |
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Fortuyn said that the uncontrolled flow of ppl coming to live here had to stop, not that all political refugees should be expelled... |
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To say that muslims have no place in your society is racist, as is wanting to stop immigration. This idea that there's not enough room for people is ridiculous. In what way is there not enough room? |
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because... ITS FULL!!! no more room for people havent you heared of overpopulation? its when there are too much ppl per km² so there arent enough resources to support them, witch results in an economical degradation. No-one ever said muslims haven't got a place in society. |
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england is 100X as big as holland, but if ppl want to get in they have to sneak over the border in a cargo containe because englands rules are a lot stricter who's the xenophobe here??? |
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Yeah and I hate this country's racist immigration laws. Overpopulation is a myth. There are plentyo f resources in an economy like yours. You have rich people don't you? Well they have a disproportionate share of the wealth. The rich and big business should be taxed more heavily to share the wealth. |
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are you out of your mind??? to defend your arguments you're saying hard working ppl should pay EVEN MORE to support people of wich half only comes here because the economy in their countrys are distroyed??? man 55% of my dad's incomes are already going to the government!!. whats next, the immigrants becoming the upper class while we give 80% of our income to support them because of our moral standards?!? |
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I was talking about big business and the rich, not ordinary working people. Have you ever heard of large corporations? I find it hard to believe your dad pays 55%of his income to the government. |
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our tax system is devided in parts. there's a minimum, over wich you may euh about 30%, over the rest you have to pay 50% and if you earn more than euh.. i dont know this ill look it up for u if you like you pay 60% a bit confusing right. ok so 55% maybe was a little bit too much. Taxing the large corporations wont work either, because they have to pay their employees so indirectly you're still making the working ppl pay |
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151 points!!! .. only 849 left to go... |
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The rich and big business should take a cut in their profits. We produce all the welath (the workers) and they keep most of it, paying us a little in wages. That's the basis of capitalism. If these people didn't accumulate all the wealth we wouldn't be arguing about whether people should be allowed into our countries. There's enough to feed the world twice over and yet nearly 2/3 of the world's population live on less than $1 a day, the very people who seek refuge and a better life in yours and my country. |
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ok so who gets to keep the wealth? if i understand your story the companys get millions and they pay little to the workers, so the bosses get to keep the rest. The more you earn, the more you pay. Its called a progressive tax system. we ARE supporting the refugees, they get to live in houses, and definetly not the worst houses there are around, 10 by 12 M, 2 story's tall for the symbolic price of 5€ a month!!! no shit! so thats exactely where your big whealth goes.. this aint amerika where you've got a single man who reings over a large corporation and owns billions of $$$... i believe that people who have worked hard trough their entire lives to set up an buisness emporium, deserve a reward. THATS capitalism (if you're so fond of protecting the refugees, why dont you let one of them live in your house??? solves at least 1/0938478 st part of the problems) |
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You really don't know what's going on do you?! The world is ruled by governments and big, big business. The small businessman is insignificant. The vast majority of trade and economic activity is by massive corporations and parent companies. Some corporations have more wealth than several small countries. Take for example the oil companies who bank-rolled Bush's election campaign and whom he is now looking after with his War on Terrorism. Check Noam Chomsky out in a search engine and hear someone with more time and intelligence give you a different view on things. |
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so?? ok its true that those really big company's have to share their whealth.. especially w/ the third world (child laboury and stuff...). Especially in amerika, but this hasn't got anything to do w/ the netherlands and the fact that pim fortuyn isnt a racist and the fact that immigrants are OK but they should't come as a tidal wave over a small country as Holland just because their own countrys have worse economies. Political refugees, allright, but its just getting too much. |
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i must say i agree if u say that those big corporations have to go, i think i overlooked that. But i believe there aren't any large companies here w/ more whealth than entire countries |
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You make Holland sound as if its insulated from global capitalism, and there are no Dutch capitalists. |
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Isn't Philips Dutch? Karl Marx's uncle set it up. |
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2/3 of the people in Pim Fortuyn's home city, rotterdam, are not originally from holland. Walking there just makes you think you live in another country. I do NOT intend to be rasistic here, it has positive sides as well, i must say i like the diversity and stuff, it's good for a country to be multicultural, but it shouldn't run out of control. at the elections for the city council, pim gained more than half of the votes, so even the non-dutch ppl agree w/ his points of view |
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mm... your post got here first :) well no the netherlands aren't insulated from the world at all, we've got the biggest seaport of the world (rotterdam) i just dont agree with your point of view that companies/workers should support all people who come to get better of it. We should cut down on allowing people to live here |
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Pim is a big hype, a lot of people didn't agree with his opinions and now that he's dead he's suddenly become holy or something. Insulting people on the basis of their religion is unacceptable, especially when you're a politician IMHO. I agree that the big cities are full but it's not that crowded everywhere. Pim pretended that everyone is allowed to come here, that's not the case at all. Only political refugees are allowed to come here, this is also the standpoint of all big leftwing Dutch politicians. Tight rules and agreements with other countries about this are needed. You can't just send people away to their death.... |
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agree discriminative talk is a form of rhetoric. History shows that successful Racists gain notoriety by promoting "separation" or "regulation" etc..... of immigrants. And then they turn the screw once they smell power. There IS enough space in Holland, and anyway "Liebesraum" (the need/love of space) was one of Hitlers early ideologies in the build up for the Holocaust. 1 in every 2000 people in Britain entered illegally last year. More than that number of British people LEFT the country in that time. This is not a FLOOD of foreigners, its dangerous rhetoric which plays on fear & insecurity. Thats what I really hate about extremist politics. It WANTS you to live in fear. Don't apologise for this scum JAroen or anyone else. |
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I'm glad someone is talking sense. That's true, more people leave the UK than enter every year. Try telling the Nazi scum at the Daily Mail and Dover Express. |
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smokehammer; you dont live in rotterdam, you live in england so you have no right to say there's enough space left here. There are places in england where you dont hear anything, and you can walk miles and miles without seeing any humans. fortuyn NEVER promoted the seperation of immigrants. |
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people should stop seeing fortuyn as a second hitler! and i AM sorry for his death, im not a racist or anything, not at all. He was the first one after many years to make out politics a little more controversial and interesting |
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OK if its interesting to hate Islam go for it. pheeewwww.....! BTW JAroen, having studied your avatar closely, it appears that you are clearly part of some kind of reduced-gene MASTER-Race. I acquiesce to your standpoint without further ado ; ) |
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Stop portraying him as a character: politics isn't a game. You're not a racist? Well what you say is whether you wish to acknowledge it or not. |
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ok lets all quit this topic then and all be friends again and live happily ever after and all... tnx for the comment on my avatar :) |
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Well we are going around in circles. Can I just ask one question? What is your dad's opinion on this matter? |
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he thinks that fortuyn's opinions are sometimes a little too over the top, but that his idea's over reducing netherland's policy on immigrants, allowing anyone who want's to enter, make sense. He also beliefs that fortuyn was NOT a racist. the second man of his party, the List Pim Fortuyn, is a man with a dark skin color (how do i say that without having all you british pll calling me a rasist and a islam hater). The idea of fortuyn being a islam hater is soo not true, where did you guys get that from??? |
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He wrote a book called The Islamation of Our Culture. This alone suggests hostility to a 'threat' posed by Islam. Wake up and smell the coffee. |
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he just wants to say that all the islamitic people are somewhat trying to baptise us. if they come to live here they shouldn't make life for ppl who already live here worse |
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i hate my crashing pc... the post continues: he just wants to say that all the islamitic people are somewhat trying to baptise us. if they come to live here they shouldn't make life for ppl who already live here worse, immigrants who come to live here are poorer than we are. Rotterdam used to have a certain flair, but now everyone leaves rotterdam because of the rising crime rate and shit why do the muslims and other ppl in rotterdam vote for him, if he would be against them??? |
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i bet no muslims would have voted for him |
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Muslims are trying to baptise people? What planet are you on? |
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ill ask around then... polls indicated that half of the votes came from ppl who aren't originally from holland... this thread is making me tired though... |
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jonesy: sorry my english failed me :) what i mean to say is that their values are intregrating too much in our culture. Our culture is becoming way too islamitic, so our cultural identity is lost you would feel sorry if your country's values dissapeared??? btw who's the fag in you avatar? |
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What values? My countries values are bullshit; if you can define them at all. Different people have different values thank god. What do you mean fag? |
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national values are bullshit goodwill has no borders jonesy> I think he is trying to say your avatar is gay. hmmm.... homophobic too heh ? the pic is rather dapper IMO is it Richard Keys ? Its the look Alan Partridge has been trying to master for years :D |
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My faggy pic is of Daniel O' Donnell; a favourite of my nan as it goes. This guy is a racist and a homophobe but won't admit it; the worst kind. I reckon he's had it drummed into him by his parents. I wish kids would think for themselves. |
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Please stop insulting eachother, arguments OK, but this is stupid IMHO |
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Well its a good job I'm not a muslim as I'd have been insulted a long time ago eh? |
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SHOOT ALL WORLD LEADERS INTO SPACE! |
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Immigration is a global issue that you won´t solve by closing your borders (close your eyes and the problem is still there!). It needs to be addressed on an international as well as a national plane. I think we in the West have a duty to help immigrants considering that the imperialism is probably the major reason to the problems in the third world. On big companies: If Wal Mart was a country it would be the 22nd largest economy in the world. A bit scary when international corporations can destroy third world economies ( the coffee companies in Latin-America etc) just for the sake of their sales reports.. Otherwise, I agree with Jonesy and Smokehammer.. |
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JAroen: you're doing a real good debate here. I support everything you say. I'll summarize it for everyone: Pim had nothing to do with racism, but when a country is full it's full. People here are already living like an inch from each other. Income taxes don't get any lower because immigrants have to be supported. So far, only little ppl have complained about this, but the situation isn't getting any better, so it's not like we have to kick every foreigner out ('cause that's what ppl outside of Holland make of it), but immigration just has to decrease thank you I rest my case P.S. I'm not at all trying to offend people here, but if I do, tell me |
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one point.. what do other political parties say in Holland ? If Fortuyn was so liberal then it must have been this issue alone which made him stand out ? Presumably the other main parties don't say what he said about immigrants . WHY ??? because they realise that no matter how popular it might be to say those things , they have a responsibility not to allow far right race issues to whip up the nation into a fever . You are naively assuming that this party wouldn't increase its nationalist/fascist/discriminative agenda upon election. It would. Look at history. You cannot elect on the race card. Its a sad indictment on you and your "Nation". |
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First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out-- because I was not a Jew Then they came for the communists and I did not speak out-- because I was not a communist Then they came for the trade unionists-- and I did not speak out-- because I was not a trade unionist Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak for me Pastor Niemoeller Victim of the Nazis in Germany |
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Ahh, jonesy, good to see ya, dude. I am actually too lazy to read this whole thread, but it just occurs to me that these dutch people are very funny: their extreme right politician is a) gay, b) is for a legalisation of drukqs. Get outta here!!! |
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