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This is a long post, but it SHOULDread more coherently than epicmegatrax's long posts, so bear with me. Here's a direct thesis: Gay people went from being oppressed to opressor in less than 10 years, because of their immutable gender and racial characterists. I was born in 1984, for context, and I'll skip talking about the 80s because I was too young. 90's through early 00's, American culture was basically "it's fine if you're gay, but don't ask, don't tell." My dad lives in Germany, I've spent considerable time across Western Euorpe, and I'm pretty comfortable saying there was a similar attitude there as well. Somewhere around, I'm gonna say 2004, things changed a bit. Now, if you're gay, just be you. I liked this era. It's totally fucking fine to be attracted to another human. And aside from southern baptists, and other evangelical christians, and probably some orthodox power jews, we were all good. Get married if you want. Go on a ski trip, nestle up to each other near the fire, fuck that other dude's butt. It warms me heart to think about. 2015, United States. Woke progessives enter the picture. They were always there, but we always laughed at them because they were categeorically stupid fucking self righteous morons. In 2015, we stopped laughing. This year began looking at progessive retardation as some kind of moral authority. The "moderate left" (see Cliton, Obama, etc) moves further left (see Sanders, AOC). "Equity over equality" is presented as righteous in the mainstream media. We started looking at marxism and "revolution" (give your shit to the state) as a solution to problems that had many facets. Now, 2023. Being gay is not enough. You are not oppressed enough, mainly because you're a man. You are a cisgendered and born with a penis, and this doesn't tick enough equity boxes. "Trans Lives Matter?" Not enough, bigot. It has to be" BLACK Trans Lives Matter," if you wan't to compete in the opression olympics. |
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What's most interesting now, is that we see more and more normal gay people shitting on this ideology. You ever seen these "Log Cabin Republicans?" They're all gay, moderate, dudes, and if you bring them up to a wokester they'd say they have "internalized homophobia." You could be a moderate 10 years ago with no problem. You could be a libertarian with no problem. Now, it's a dirty word. Epicmegatrax can tell you all about what woke ass NPR has to say about being anti authoritarian in 2023. TLDR; progressives don't like it. (Someone here, 10 or 15 years ago, cracked a joke that libertarians were always the most miserly party throwers, begrudging anyone taking a beer. It was funny, but at least for me, not true. Motherfucker, fuck the beer, I brought a bunch of vodka and a carton of smokes, drink up, and I love you!) I just want those days back, where we didn't listen to the most sensitive pansy in the room. Fuck you, sensitive pansy. |
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characteristics. already fucked up the thesis, just abort the whole thing |
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now, someone here is woke weary ^^ i just made that up, but i see that this topic is getting on peoples nerves. i thought about this a lot, when the radiostation asked "can you be too woke" as a rhethorical question on a left station, to make fun of a politicians remark saying "you can be too woke nowadays" "and dont go overboard with it" so, i asked myself, when is/would be.. ..too much? i thought about a million examples and what parts of art, society, media producers and politics now deal with the issues, gnaw on it, label it, commercialize it and whatnot. i have to say i came to no conclusion. so i´ll leave it at that for the time being. let society as a whole figure it out. ah yeah, and climate change will fuck us all |
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i agree w/ the climate change thing. though I think even in the very worst case scenario humans will persist and rebuild |
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I really liked Omar from the Wire. HBO, 2002. Anyone seen that? He was a gay badass, through and through. I don't think a character like this would pass the sensitivity readers today. |
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climate change: I've seen you mention it a few times, it's a real sticking point for you personally, I gather. I think you and I agree on the nature of the problem. 1. Human industrialization has caused the climate to warm beyond levels that our current ecosystem will be able to sustain for long 2. When we reach the tipping point, many species will go extinct, coastal cities will flood, economies will die, and quality of life will be poor, for a time. These are facts we're both on board with, I believe. Where we probably disagree is solutions. What do you wanna do? Make everyone eat crickets? Make cars illegal? Bomb developing countries for excessive coal usage? Your answers will veer towards authoritarianism, of that I have little doubt. DO IT FOR EVERYONES GOOD, or we'll fucking take everything you have. Those are all worse than just letting it ride. I'd rather personally live in the times of full blast global warming consequence than some nanny state that tries so hard to avoid it when it's going to happen no matter what. Further with the "shitty take." What's the difference between a historical catastrophe (bubonic plague an example) and a future catastrophe? I don't see one, really. Bunch of people gonna die and have a shitty quality of life. Its already happened throughout history and will again. Luckily I wasn't around for it. To emphasize the future so much over the past is only important to YOU, it has no real significance. We will be forgotten blips, same as some cat from 1312 who got his throat slit because he didn't believe in the right god. We just ride and rebuild. |
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"What's the difference between a historical catastrophe (bubonic plague an example) and a future catastrophe?" the actual answer to that is probably simply an evolutionary psychological mechanism. Your offspring (and their offspring) can exist in a potential future, but not in the past. I bet there's some data on this in academic realms (tho evolutionary psychology is currently diminished as it's fairly unwoke) |
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yes, to 1 & 2 i dont opt for bombing coal states, we´d have to bomb ourselves first, hehe so, obviously countries cant do that. but there is many other ways to improve the situation. germany has always been a state funding their favourite technology or industries. coal, nuclear power, cars etc... 100s of billions and billions, without being called a nanny state. its a matter of interest. and corruption too but im not blaming. so interests change. time to end fossils and fund renewables. make it a flourishing economy just as we did with other industries. its got nothing to do with a nanny state. *footnote its a needful change and it can be done. i watched a few documentaries and read about it. there are numerous ways for industry, chemical industry aswell as heating. will it be enough before the tipping point? thats a tough one, but im willing to try. is there even a point in not trying? *footnote to nanny state, this term is so fundamentally wrong. a nanny is someone who feeds and protects you. if we are grown ups we should act as grown ups. imo people (lets say grown men driving choppers with anti greta stickers, which is ridiculous, cause no one ever said we cant have a few choppers in the world) who stand against taking action against climate change are nothing more than a child thats crying cause someone took their lollipop. to me, its that childish. |
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cute! weird, but cute ^^ |
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i get that climate change, or depleteing fishing grounds, ruining our soil, burning the forest, all these problems in which our personal impact is so minimal, but our collective so catastrophic, it is hard to acknowledge them. we can actually do something about them. usually people argue like this: why should i get less and let others have it all and the planet still is ruined, no matter what i do? why should i care? so, most of the people i talk to who argue like this, have double or triple the income of mine. how is it possible then for me to buy local, eat a lot of organic food, pay for renewable energy, have a green bank account? (not greenwashed btw) these things are so fundamentally easy, while already having a strong impact. anyway for most it is easier to just shrug everything off with a joke. live in denial or ignorance, before accepting we´re doing something wrong. and its easy to target environmentalists. i can laugh about myself for some things, but not for trying to make things better. i think its sad. im not following blindly and i try to be informed of what i advocate, but its got to be common sense we cannot go on like this. |
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Woke & Broke |
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so i was roommates once with a guy who was conservative, mild gun nut, was in some division of the armed services. but he was smart, and pretty much we enjoyed fencing with each other so much the sometimes we'd kind of forget we were arguing and actually come up with something. one that came out of me: conservatives drive me nuts slowing things down, civil rights, etc. but without them society would change too quickly and things would fly apart. people wouldn't be able to handle it and here we are. more recently: a friend of mine is a christian, but the sort who is fine with the whole woke-pronoun deal etc. so it was kind of a surprise when he kind of nervously "came out" to me as christian, and my reaction was kind of like: thank heck i have been wanting to just tell some christian: "that stuff, 'they want to destroy you,' that is not true at all" and it was a looong convo from there but at some point, i said: "if the pronoun thing is enforced at work, then i think you should be allowed to say 'god bless you' at work." i don't believe in a man in the sky. but when someone says, "god bless you," i genuinely say: "thank you very much." it's like getting an ugly sweater for christmas. it's the thought that counts. that by saying that, they were trying to give you a gift, in their own way, and simply appreciate that they did this for you. opposed to what woffles is making a bit of a mess scaling in the wrong direction: it's become a stupid us-vs-them thing when it really needn't be. it's just more profitable to keep people divided, because then they can't band together and overthrow your coal mine legislation. |
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if a woke lays its egg in a gay it creates a ferocious wokegaylien |
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if a woke lays an egg and a half, in a gay and a half, is tony danza anything other than a disappointing anti-lib reddit populist? |
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why must you politicize the wokes vs gays thread |
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"I just want those days back, where we didn't listen to the most sensitive pansy in the room. Fuck you, sensitive pansy" This basically. I'm even worse, from the 70s, and being hectored by my partner's militant they/them daughter (a precocious 6th Form Politics Debating Society in the body of a 25 year old woman with a thyroid problem) where she will literally, literally throw herself on the floor and start screaming if you don't agree with her, because she doesn't feel safe (I wouldn't feel safe in that shuffling heart attack time bomb of a body), I find very tiring. I always say, and again I'm showing my age, but back through the 80s 90s you had TV programmes like Top of the Pops, showing the chart "hits" and everyone watched, from kids to granny, and the line ups were always incredibly mixed from appalling Novelty Acts to quite politicised acts like Steel Pulse or The Specials. Openly gay acts. And proto-Trans acts like the New Romantic lot. And it didn't feel like a deathless exercise in Diversity Balance. It just was, and people just got along. But I believe Julie Burchill wrote fairly recently that you couldn't have Top of the Pops now as any Black representation would be scrutinised for how Black they were, camp acts like Boy George would be the wrong sort of representation of the whole Trans issue, quotas imposed, She wrote it a lot better than I paraphrase it. in summary, when we do listen to the over-sensitive pansy and everyone else walks on eggshells for the sake of an easy life, don't moan when your family gathering is a Lesson in How to Think and an even more joyless affair than usual. |
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- it's from The Spectator, again showing my age. |
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Owen Jones has just released his first Mixtape. Track four will Suprise you |
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ms thyroid sounds like self parody, you'd call it far fetched in a Viz strip it's not only youth though, I got lectured by a yoga woman in her fifties for liking hp lovecraft and bugs bunny, which might make people feel Unsafe |
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wokes vs gays, pay per view battle royale |
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actually if you ask a hetero woke if he wants some of the D is he gonna say yes? no! because they are liars that's why! |
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the real og "woke" enlightment just one dick suck away |
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everyone is gay really |
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of all the idiotic things under the woke umbrella, "cultural appropriation " is by far the stupidest. They honestly don't realize that saying "you look like THIS therefore you shouldn't do THIS" is legitimatey pure racism. It hurts creativity, it hurts growth, it hurts everything in culture. They actually think this somehow a good thing. |
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So who wins then, gays or wokes? |
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gays win bro, there's a lot of testosterone in that room |
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I remember reading that Penguin house wanted to instal a quota. That seemed ridiculous. Just publish the best books you get and if you have to then find a way for submissions to be free of any personal info. But quotas? I remember years back talking about positive discrimination but Putins little Canadian Bitch went wild on me. He was well woke a while back. |
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Ha ha! |
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reminded me of that Julie Burchill piece, but 90s and more nostalgic. |
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I can't stand her |
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I see news articles and the internet is hysterical about all this stuff by i never really notice it in day to day life, |
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Well, I try to cut people a bit of slack, find points of agreement instead of disagreement. One thing I'll say is her piece greatly exaggerates how chill people were about gays and blacks in the 80s. It was fine if they were entertainers (most of the time). |
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oh yeah sorry for some reason i got her mentally mixed up with Sarah vine for some reason! |
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And it didn't feel like a deathless exercise in Diversity Balance. It just was, and people just got along. i do hate the " representation" thing in entertainment. just make something good and get on with it; totally with you there. but then in the 80s, it was big to do things like put your gay child in a burlap sack and whip them with pipes as a religious "rebirthing" ceremony to banish the gay. then either they lose access to their family or become squashed into some corner that doesn't represent them, and here come suicides, drug abuse, mental health issues. then they say: "oh, he's miserable because he's gay." and, yes, sort of, but it's because you're making him miserable? and this stuff still happens, obviously, but at least now there's a lot of public yelling and it's probably saved at least a few lives. |
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has some thoughtful things to say about the 80s, from the 80s |
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you accuse minorities of weaponizing their marginalization, yet go along in with same idea. both parties (whether real or just mostly existing in the heads of their adversaries) should focus on actual material conditions. marginalization is quantifiable. it would take actual listening to believe the numbers, though |
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I'm disgusted, disgusted I say, that you think I'd link to an article by Sarah Vine (Vain) and suggesting in any way I'd agree with it DISGUSTED! |
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I'd agree, but at the same time I don't think it was the Race Holocaust it suits some people to paint it as. And I think the Soft Power of Top of the Pops showed inclusion, and the results of collaboration (which, as Wolf says, would now be termed Cultural Appropriation) and it looked like a lot of fun. Not some deathless exercise in some He-mandated office where that benighted Department has now found a way to finally make work for themselves and are really running with it. |
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HR* God I hate HR depts. How the fuck goes into HR. It feels like the Internet, Media and Government is being run by fucking HR, endlessly trying to justify their pointless existence. |
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Very nice article. The only thing I disagree with is saying 1988 was a bad year; 1988 was objectively the best year EVER for music. I did like "Movies had tits in them. God, I miss tits in movies" |
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“That was Bronski Beat's message. They were going to point out the essential problems and oppressions involved in being gay at that time, which was you were quite likely to get beaten up somewhere, or thrown out by family. There's really no question that that's true. It is still true. In that sense, it was very bold.” since everyone knows bronski beat, here's an attempt at a crate dive: ~ anyone heard this before? |
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it kind of describes todays feeling at times... eggshell business is truly a downside, but as i was trying to say: we´ll figure it out |
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i second that opinion, cultural appropriation accuses feel more like a form of segregation than the protection it is supposed to be. |
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I wouldn't accuse minorities of weaponizing marginalization, not at all. I'd accuse identity focused progressives (mostly white women and the men who want to fuck them) of weaponizing marginalization on their behalf-- for their own deconstructionist ends-- and that's a pretty big distinction. It's anecdotal, but I grew up around a lot of Persians, we had them as tenants and kept getting more persian tenants cause they were so cool. They were mostly zoroastrian, but a few muslims in there too. These families were kind, engaging, cooked bad ass persian bbq with basmati rice, jammed out with their persian bangers, and had a real sense of community. It wasn't based around political vitriol and anger, just around family and being friendly. The men treated you like an adult and didn't talk down to you, and the women would always come up and give you a big kiss on the cheek. They genuinely enriched my upbringing in a lot of ways. I'd be truly surprised if a single one of those people ended up latching onto this idpol shit. |
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okay, in principal i agree. i can say i'm politically active, again, for a pretty 'woke' party. its main creed is 'not about us, without us', so no woke liberals that weaponize other people's marginalization |
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i've wandered into this thread from another thread of wandering into another thread of... halp |
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i've seen the dawn of the web; i've seen woke-ness awaken. in pre-school, they began to mix in "dradel, dradel" with the christmas songs. a few years later, kwanza. like circuits gradually being switched on. some of the early failures were spectacular, i should note -- like when we were called for a school assembly where some black gentleman showed off a genuine pair of manacles -- his words -- and, this is me at 15, and i'm thinking: "i'm not sure how you expect me to react to this?" that, at a middle-school parent/teacher "the teachers on the stage at assembly hall, the parents being handed the wireless mic in between them blathering" thing, one parent asks: "what are you doing for the gifted children in the school?" it was -- by my dad's colorful recount -- like someone had sprayed shit-mist all over them. then a long, awkward, pause. before... "all of our children are gifted." ...and that was, umm, 12 years old? and that's when the good ship "woke" sailed off on the sea of goofball for me. to its defense, however, "other cultures exist, racism exists" was a good thing for a kid growing up in a largely white environment. there was nothing about being bisexual, though; i got no help there. one might these days but then, yes, "all of our children are gifted" and i'm laughing at you tits |
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if men and women are truly equal, why do we have separate bathrooms? |
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