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wokes vs gays
 

online Wolfslice from Bay Area, CA (United States) on 2023-02-12 14:56 [#02625115]
Points: 4497 Status: Lurker



This is a long post, but it SHOULDread more coherently than
epicmegatrax's long posts, so bear with me.

Here's a direct thesis:
Gay people went from being oppressed to opressor in less
than 10 years, because of their immutable gender and racial
characterists.
I was born in 1984, for context, and I'll skip talking about
the 80s because I was too young.

90's through early 00's, American culture was basically
"it's fine if you're gay, but don't ask, don't tell." My dad
lives in Germany, I've spent considerable time across
Western Euorpe, and I'm pretty comfortable saying there was
a similar attitude there as well.

Somewhere around, I'm gonna say 2004, things changed a bit.
Now, if you're gay, just be you. I liked this era. It's
totally fucking fine to be attracted to another human. And
aside from southern baptists, and other evangelical
christians, and probably some orthodox power jews, we were
all good. Get married if you want. Go on a ski trip, nestle
up to each other near the fire, fuck that other dude's butt.
It warms me heart to think about.

2015, United States. Woke progessives enter the picture.
They were always there, but we always laughed at them
because they were categeorically stupid fucking self
righteous morons.

In 2015, we stopped laughing. This year began looking at
progessive retardation as some kind of moral authority. The
"moderate left" (see Cliton, Obama, etc) moves further left
(see Sanders, AOC). "Equity over equality" is presented as
righteous in the mainstream media. We started looking at
marxism and "revolution" (give your shit to the state) as a
solution to problems that had many facets.

Now, 2023. Being gay is not enough. You are not oppressed
enough, mainly because you're a man. You are a cisgendered
and born with a penis, and this doesn't tick enough equity
boxes. "Trans Lives Matter?" Not enough, bigot. It has to
be" BLACK Trans Lives Matter," if you wan't to compete in
the opression olympics.


 

online Wolfslice from Bay Area, CA (United States) on 2023-02-12 14:57 [#02625116]
Points: 4497 Status: Lurker



What's most interesting now, is that we see more and more
normal gay people shitting on this ideology. You ever seen
these "Log Cabin Republicans?" They're all gay, moderate,
dudes, and if you bring them up to a wokester they'd say
they have "internalized homophobia."

You could be a moderate 10 years ago with no problem. You
could be a libertarian with no problem. Now, it's a dirty
word. Epicmegatrax can tell you all about what woke ass NPR
has to say about being anti authoritarian in 2023. TLDR;
progressives don't like it.

(Someone here, 10 or 15 years ago, cracked a joke that
libertarians were always the most miserly party throwers,
begrudging anyone taking a beer. It was funny, but at least
for me, not true. Motherfucker, fuck the beer, I brought a
bunch of vodka and a carton of smokes, drink up, and I love
you!)

I just want those days back, where we didn't listen to the
most sensitive pansy in the room. Fuck you, sensitive pansy.


 

online Wolfslice from Bay Area, CA (United States) on 2023-02-12 14:58 [#02625117]
Points: 4497 Status: Lurker



characteristics. already fucked up the thesis, just abort
the whole thing


 

offline ijonspeches from 109P/Swift-Tuttle on 2023-02-12 17:58 [#02625119]
Points: 7469 Status: Addict | Show recordbag



now, someone here is woke weary ^^
i just made that up, but i see that this topic is getting on
peoples nerves. i thought about this a lot, when the
radiostation asked "can you be too woke" as a rhethorical
question on a left station, to make fun of a politicians
remark saying "you can be too woke nowadays"
"and dont go overboard with it"
so, i asked myself, when is/would be.. ..too much?
i thought about a million examples and what parts of art,
society, media producers and politics now deal with the
issues, gnaw on it, label it, commercialize it and whatnot.
i have to say i came to no conclusion.
so i´ll leave it at that for the time being.
let society as a whole figure it out.

ah yeah, and climate change will fuck us all


 

online Wolfslice from Bay Area, CA (United States) on 2023-02-12 18:00 [#02625120]
Points: 4497 Status: Lurker



i agree w/ the climate change thing.

though I think even in the very worst case scenario humans
will persist and rebuild


 

online Wolfslice from Bay Area, CA (United States) on 2023-02-12 18:03 [#02625121]
Points: 4497 Status: Lurker



I really liked Omar from the Wire. HBO, 2002.

Anyone seen that?

He was a gay badass, through and through. I don't think a
character like this would pass the sensitivity readers
today.


 

online Wolfslice from Bay Area, CA (United States) on 2023-02-12 18:30 [#02625124]
Points: 4497 Status: Lurker | Followup to ijonspeches: #02625119



climate change:

I've seen you mention it a few times, it's a real sticking
point for you personally, I gather.

I think you and I agree on the nature of the problem.

1. Human industrialization has caused the climate to warm
beyond levels that our current ecosystem will be able to
sustain for long

2. When we reach the tipping point, many species will go
extinct, coastal cities will flood, economies will die, and
quality of life will be poor, for a time.

These are facts we're both on board with, I believe. Where
we probably disagree is solutions.

What do you wanna do? Make everyone eat crickets? Make cars
illegal? Bomb developing countries for excessive coal usage?
Your answers will veer towards authoritarianism, of that I
have little doubt. DO IT FOR EVERYONES GOOD, or we'll
fucking take everything you have.

Those are all worse than just letting it ride. I'd rather
personally live in the times of full blast global warming
consequence than some nanny state that tries so hard to
avoid it when it's going to happen no matter what.

Further with the "shitty take." What's the difference
between a historical catastrophe (bubonic plague an example)
and a future catastrophe? I don't see one, really. Bunch of
people gonna die and have a shitty quality of life. Its
already happened throughout history and will again. Luckily
I wasn't around for it. To emphasize the future so much over
the past is only important to YOU, it has no real
significance. We will be forgotten blips, same as some cat
from 1312 who got his throat slit because he didn't believe
in the right god.

We just ride and rebuild.


 

online Wolfslice from Bay Area, CA (United States) on 2023-02-12 18:37 [#02625125]
Points: 4497 Status: Lurker



eat your crickets


 

online Wolfslice from Bay Area, CA (United States) on 2023-02-12 19:00 [#02625126]
Points: 4497 Status: Lurker



"What's the difference between a historical catastrophe
(bubonic plague an example) and a future catastrophe?"

the actual answer to that is probably simply an evolutionary
psychological mechanism. Your offspring (and their
offspring) can exist in a potential future, but not in the
past. I bet there's some data on this in academic realms
(tho evolutionary psychology is currently diminished as it's
fairly unwoke)


 

offline ijonspeches from 109P/Swift-Tuttle on 2023-02-12 19:42 [#02625127]
Points: 7469 Status: Addict | Followup to Wolfslice: #02625124 | Show recordbag



yes, to 1 & 2
i dont opt for bombing coal states,
we´d have to bomb ourselves first, hehe
so, obviously countries cant do that.
but there is many other ways to improve the situation.

germany has always been a state funding their favourite
technology or industries. coal, nuclear power, cars etc...
100s of billions and billions, without being called a nanny
state. its a matter of interest. and corruption too but im
not blaming. so interests change. time to end fossils and
fund renewables. make it a flourishing economy just as we
did with other industries. its got nothing to do with a
nanny state. *footnote

its a needful change and it can be done. i watched a few
documentaries and read about it. there are numerous ways for
industry, chemical industry aswell as heating. will it be
enough before the tipping point? thats a tough one, but im
willing to try.

is there even a point in not trying?

*footnote to nanny state,
this term is so fundamentally wrong.
a nanny is someone who feeds and protects you.
if we are grown ups we should act as grown ups.
imo people (lets say grown men driving choppers with anti
greta stickers, which is ridiculous, cause no one ever said
we cant have a few choppers in the world) who stand against
taking action against climate change are nothing more than a
child thats crying cause someone took their lollipop.
to me, its that childish.



 

offline ijonspeches from 109P/Swift-Tuttle on 2023-02-12 19:56 [#02625128]
Points: 7469 Status: Addict | Followup to Wolfslice: #02625125 | Show recordbag



cute! weird, but cute ^^


 

offline ijonspeches from 109P/Swift-Tuttle on 2023-02-12 20:53 [#02625129]
Points: 7469 Status: Addict | Show recordbag



i get that climate change, or depleteing fishing grounds,
ruining our soil, burning the forest, all these problems in
which our personal impact is so minimal, but our collective
so catastrophic, it is hard to acknowledge them. we can
actually do something about them.

usually people argue like this: why should i get less and
let others have it all and the planet still is ruined, no
matter what i do? why should i care?

so, most of the people i talk to who argue like this, have
double or triple the income of mine. how is it possible then
for me to buy local, eat a lot of organic food, pay for
renewable energy, have a green bank account? (not
greenwashed btw) these things are so fundamentally easy,
while already having a strong impact.

anyway for most it is easier to just shrug everything off
with a joke. live in denial or ignorance, before accepting
we´re doing something wrong. and its easy to target
environmentalists.
i can laugh about myself for some things,
but not for trying to make things better. i think its sad.
im not following blindly and i try to be informed of what i
advocate,
but its got to be common sense we cannot go on like this.


 

offline EpicMegatrax from Greatest Hits on 2023-02-12 21:23 [#02625132]
Points: 23055 Status: Regular



Woke & Broke


 

offline EpicMegatrax from Greatest Hits on 2023-02-12 21:37 [#02625133]
Points: 23055 Status: Regular



so i was roommates once with a guy who was conservative,
mild gun nut, was in some division of the armed services.
but he was smart, and pretty much we enjoyed fencing with
each other so much the sometimes we'd kind of forget we were
arguing and actually come up with something.

one that came out of me: conservatives drive me nuts slowing
things down, civil rights, etc. but without them society
would change too quickly and things would fly apart. people
wouldn't be able to handle it

and here we are.

more recently: a friend of mine is a christian, but the sort
who is fine with the whole woke-pronoun deal etc. so it was
kind of a surprise when he kind of nervously "came out" to
me as christian, and my reaction was kind of like: thank
heck i have been wanting to just tell some christian:
"that stuff, 'they want to destroy you,' that is not true at
all" and it was a looong convo from there

but at some point, i said: "if the pronoun thing is enforced
at work, then i think you should be allowed to say 'god
bless you' at work."

i don't believe in a man in the sky. but when someone says,
"god bless you," i genuinely say: "thank you very much."
it's like getting an ugly sweater for christmas. it's the
thought that counts. that by saying that, they were trying
to give you a gift, in their own way, and simply appreciate
that they did this for you.

opposed to what woffles is making a bit of a mess scaling in
the wrong direction: it's become a stupid us-vs-them thing
when it really needn't be. it's just more profitable to keep
people divided, because then they can't band together and
overthrow your coal mine legislation.


 

offline Tony Danza from Fabulous Hollywood on 2023-02-13 01:33 [#02625134]
Points: 3260 Status: Lurker



if a woke lays its egg in a gay it creates a ferocious
wokegaylien


 

offline EpicMegatrax from Greatest Hits on 2023-02-13 02:41 [#02625135]
Points: 23055 Status: Regular



if a woke lays an egg and a half, in a gay and a half, is
tony danza anything other than a disappointing anti-lib
reddit populist?


 

offline Tony Danza from Fabulous Hollywood on 2023-02-13 04:02 [#02625140]
Points: 3260 Status: Lurker



why must you politicize the wokes vs gays thread


 

offline Roger Wilco from Mo's Beans on 2023-02-13 08:24 [#02625151]
Points: 1555 Status: Lurker | Followup to Wolfslice: #02625116



"I just want those days back, where we didn't listen to
the
most sensitive pansy in the room. Fuck you, sensitive
pansy
"

This basically. I'm even worse, from the 70s, and being
hectored by my partner's militant they/them daughter (a
precocious 6th Form Politics Debating Society in the body of
a 25 year old woman with a thyroid problem) where she will
literally, literally throw herself on the floor and start
screaming if you don't agree with her, because she doesn't
feel safe (I wouldn't feel safe in that shuffling heart
attack time bomb of a body), I find very tiring.

I always say, and again I'm showing my age, but back through
the 80s 90s you had TV programmes like Top of the Pops,
showing the chart "hits" and everyone watched, from kids to
granny, and the line ups were always incredibly mixed from
appalling Novelty Acts to quite politicised acts like Steel
Pulse or The Specials. Openly gay acts. And proto-Trans acts
like the New Romantic lot. And it didn't feel like a
deathless exercise in Diversity Balance. It just was, and
people just got along. But I believe Julie Burchill wrote
fairly recently that you couldn't have Top of the Pops now
as any Black representation would be scrutinised for how
Black they were, camp acts like Boy George would be the
wrong sort of representation of the whole Trans issue,
quotas imposed, She wrote it a lot better than I paraphrase
it.

in summary, when we do listen to the over-sensitive pansy
and everyone else walks on eggshells for the sake of an easy
life, don't moan when your family gathering is a Lesson in
How to Think and an even more joyless affair than usual.


 

offline Roger Wilco from Mo's Beans on 2023-02-13 08:28 [#02625152]
Points: 1555 Status: Lurker



Cultural appropriation has killed modern music - it's from The Spectator, again showing my
age.


 

offline Roger Wilco from Mo's Beans on 2023-02-13 08:39 [#02625157]
Points: 1555 Status: Lurker



Owen Jones has just released his first Mixtape. Track four
will Suprise you


 

offline Tony Danza from Fabulous Hollywood on 2023-02-13 09:54 [#02625160]
Points: 3260 Status: Lurker | Followup to Roger Wilco: #02625151



ms thyroid sounds like self parody, you'd call it far
fetched in a Viz strip

it's not only youth though, I got lectured by a yoga woman
in her fifties for liking hp lovecraft and bugs bunny, which
might make people feel Unsafe


 

offline belb from mmmmmmhhhhzzzz!!! on 2023-02-13 13:37 [#02625165]
Points: 6185 Status: Lurker



wokes vs gays, pay per view battle royale


 

offline mermaidman on 2023-02-13 17:32 [#02625169]
Points: 7824 Status: Lurker



actually if you ask a hetero woke if he wants some of the D
is he gonna say yes? no! because they are liars that's why!


 

offline mermaidman on 2023-02-13 17:34 [#02625171]
Points: 7824 Status: Lurker



the real og "woke" enlightment just one dick suck away


 

offline umbroman3 from United Kingdom on 2023-02-13 17:49 [#02625174]
Points: 6096 Status: Regular



everyone is gay really


 

online Wolfslice from Bay Area, CA (United States) on 2023-02-13 19:42 [#02625183]
Points: 4497 Status: Lurker | Followup to Roger Wilco: #02625152



of all the idiotic things under the woke umbrella, "cultural
appropriation " is by far the stupidest.

They honestly don't realize that saying "you look like THIS
therefore you shouldn't do THIS" is legitimatey pure racism.
It hurts creativity, it hurts growth, it hurts everything in
culture. They actually think this somehow a good thing.


 

offline RussellDust on 2023-02-13 19:44 [#02625185]
Points: 15783 Status: Regular



So who wins then, gays or wokes?


 

online Wolfslice from Bay Area, CA (United States) on 2023-02-13 19:44 [#02625186]
Points: 4497 Status: Lurker | Followup to RussellDust: #02625185



gays win bro, there's a lot of testosterone in that room


 

offline RussellDust on 2023-02-13 19:47 [#02625191]
Points: 15783 Status: Regular



I remember reading that Penguin house wanted to instal a
quota. That seemed ridiculous. Just publish the best books
you get and if you have to then find a way for submissions
to be free of any personal info. But quotas?

I remember years back talking about positive discrimination
but Putins little Canadian Bitch went wild on me. He was
well woke a while back.


 

offline RussellDust on 2023-02-13 19:48 [#02625192]
Points: 15783 Status: Regular | Followup to Wolfslice: #02625186



Ha ha!


 

offline Tony Danza from Fabulous Hollywood on 2023-02-13 22:27 [#02625203]
Points: 3260 Status: Lurker



This reminded me of that Julie Burchill piece, but
90s and more nostalgic.


 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2023-02-13 22:56 [#02625204]
Points: 30586 Status: Lurker | Followup to Tony Danza: #02625203



I can't stand her


 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2023-02-13 23:02 [#02625205]
Points: 30586 Status: Lurker



I see news articles and the internet is hysterical about
all this stuff by i never really notice it in day to day
life,


 

offline Tony Danza from Fabulous Hollywood on 2023-02-13 23:29 [#02625206]
Points: 3260 Status: Lurker | Followup to Hyperflake: #02625204



Well, I try to cut people a bit of slack, find points of
agreement instead of disagreement.

One thing I'll say is her piece greatly exaggerates how
chill people were about gays and blacks in the 80s. It was
fine if they were entertainers (most of the time).


 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2023-02-14 00:17 [#02625207]
Points: 30586 Status: Lurker | Followup to Tony Danza: #02625206



oh yeah sorry for some reason i got her mentally mixed up
with Sarah vine for some reason!


 

offline EpicMegatrax from Greatest Hits on 2023-02-14 05:26 [#02625210]
Points: 23055 Status: Regular | Followup to Roger Wilco: #02625151



And it didn't feel like a deathless exercise in Diversity
Balance. It just was, and people just got along.


i do hate the " representation" thing in entertainment. just
make something good and get on with it; totally with you
there. but then in the 80s, it was big to do things like put
your gay child in a burlap sack and whip them with pipes as
a religious "rebirthing" ceremony to banish the gay. then
either they lose access to their family or become squashed
into some corner that doesn't represent them, and here come
suicides, drug abuse, mental health issues. then they say:
"oh, he's miserable because he's gay." and, yes, sort of,
but it's because you're making him miserable?

and this stuff still happens, obviously, but at least now
there's a lot of public yelling and it's probably saved at
least a few lives.


 

offline EpicMegatrax from Greatest Hits on 2023-02-14 05:43 [#02625211]
Points: 23055 Status: Regular



bronski beat has some thoughtful things to say about the
80s, from the 80s


 

offline big from lsg on 2023-02-14 06:18 [#02625212]
Points: 22807 Status: Lurker | Show recordbag



you accuse minorities of weaponizing their marginalization,
yet go along in with same idea. both parties (whether real
or just mostly existing in the heads of their adversaries)
should focus on actual material conditions. marginalization
is quantifiable. it would take actual listening to
believe the numbers, though


 

offline Roger Wilco from Mo's Beans on 2023-02-14 06:23 [#02625213]
Points: 1555 Status: Lurker | Followup to Hyperflake: #02625207



I'm disgusted, disgusted I say, that you think I'd
link to an article by Sarah Vine (Vain) and suggesting in
any way I'd agree with it

DISGUSTED!


 

offline Roger Wilco from Mo's Beans on 2023-02-14 06:28 [#02625215]
Points: 1555 Status: Lurker | Followup to Tony Danza: #02625206



I'd agree, but at the same time I don't think it was the
Race Holocaust it suits some people to paint it as. And I
think the Soft Power of Top of the Pops showed inclusion,
and the results of collaboration (which, as Wolf says, would
now be termed Cultural Appropriation) and it looked like a
lot of fun. Not some deathless exercise in some He-mandated
office where that benighted Department has now found a way
to finally make work for themselves and are really
running with it
.



 

offline Roger Wilco from Mo's Beans on 2023-02-14 06:31 [#02625216]
Points: 1555 Status: Lurker



HR*

God I hate HR depts. How the fuck goes into HR. It feels
like the Internet, Media and Government is being run by
fucking HR, endlessly trying to justify their pointless
existence.


 

offline Roger Wilco from Mo's Beans on 2023-02-14 06:48 [#02625218]
Points: 1555 Status: Lurker | Followup to Tony Danza: #02625203



Very nice article. The only thing I disagree with is saying
1988 was a bad year; 1988 was objectively the best year EVER
for music.

I did like "Movies had tits in them. God, I miss tits in
movies"



 

offline EpicMegatrax from Greatest Hits on 2023-02-14 07:32 [#02625220]
Points: 23055 Status: Regular



“That was Bronski Beat's message. They were going to
point out the essential problems and oppressions involved in
being gay at that time, which was you were quite likely to
get beaten up somewhere, or thrown out by family. There's
really no question that that's true. It is still true. In
that sense, it was very bold.”


LAZY_TITLE

since everyone knows bronski beat, here's an attempt at a
crate dive:

LAZY_TITLE ~ anyone heard this before?


 

offline ijonspeches from 109P/Swift-Tuttle on 2023-02-14 09:01 [#02625222]
Points: 7469 Status: Addict | Followup to Roger Wilco: #02625151 | Show recordbag



it kind of describes todays feeling at times...
eggshell business is truly a downside, but as i was trying
to say:
we´ll figure it out


 

offline ijonspeches from 109P/Swift-Tuttle on 2023-02-14 09:07 [#02625223]
Points: 7469 Status: Addict | Followup to Wolfslice: #02625183 | Show recordbag



i second that opinion,
cultural appropriation accuses feel more like a form of
segregation than the protection it is supposed to be.


 

online Wolfslice from Bay Area, CA (United States) on 2023-02-14 11:24 [#02625232]
Points: 4497 Status: Lurker | Followup to big: #02625212



I wouldn't accuse minorities of weaponizing marginalization,
not at all.

I'd accuse identity focused progressives (mostly white women
and the men who want to fuck them) of weaponizing
marginalization on their behalf-- for their own
deconstructionist ends-- and that's a pretty big
distinction.

It's anecdotal, but I grew up around a lot of Persians, we
had them as tenants and kept getting more persian tenants
cause they were so cool. They were mostly zoroastrian, but a
few muslims in there too. These families were kind,
engaging, cooked bad ass persian bbq with basmati rice,
jammed out with their persian bangers, and had a real sense
of community. It wasn't based around political vitriol and
anger, just around family and being friendly. The men
treated you like an adult and didn't talk down to you, and
the women would always come up and give you a big kiss on
the cheek. They genuinely enriched my upbringing in a lot of
ways. I'd be truly surprised if a single one of those
people ended up latching onto this idpol shit.


 

offline big from lsg on 2023-02-14 13:03 [#02625233]
Points: 22807 Status: Lurker | Followup to Wolfslice: #02625232 | Show recordbag



okay, in principal i agree.

i can say i'm politically active, again, for a pretty 'woke'
party. its main creed is 'not about us, without us', so no
woke liberals that weaponize other people's marginalization


 

offline EpicMegatrax from Greatest Hits on 2023-02-14 22:20 [#02625256]
Points: 23055 Status: Regular



i've wandered into this thread from another thread of
wandering into another thread of... halp


 

offline EpicMegatrax from Greatest Hits on 2023-02-14 22:29 [#02625257]
Points: 23055 Status: Regular



i've seen the dawn of the web; i've seen woke-ness awaken.
in pre-school, they began to mix in "dradel, dradel" with
the christmas songs. a few years later, kwanza. like
circuits gradually being switched on. some of the early
failures were spectacular, i should note -- like when we
were called for a school assembly where some black gentleman
showed off a genuine pair of manacles -- his words -- and,
this is me at 15, and i'm thinking: "i'm not sure how you
expect me to react to this?"

that, at a middle-school parent/teacher "the teachers on the
stage at assembly hall, the parents being handed the
wireless mic in between them blathering" thing, one parent
asks:

"what are you doing for the gifted children in the school?"

it was -- by my dad's colorful recount -- like someone had
sprayed shit-mist all over them. then a long, awkward,
pause. before...

"all of our children are gifted."

...and that was, umm, 12 years old? and that's when the good
ship "woke" sailed off on the sea of goofball for me. to its
defense, however, "other cultures exist, racism exists" was
a good thing for a kid growing up in a largely white
environment. there was nothing about being bisexual, though;
i got no help there. one might these days

but then, yes, "all of our children are gifted" and i'm
laughing at you tits


 

offline EpicMegatrax from Greatest Hits on 2023-02-14 22:30 [#02625258]
Points: 23055 Status: Regular



if men and women are truly equal, why do we have separate
bathrooms?


 


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