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wavephace
 

offline AMPI MAX from United Kingdom on 2018-06-26 21:25 [#02555152]
Points: 10246 Status: Addict



you wanted to talk about racism


 

offline RussellDust on 2018-06-26 21:43 [#02555159]
Points: 12210 Status: Regular



LOL


 

offline wavephace from Aspiring Moderator on 2018-06-27 01:36 [#02555196]
Points: 2538 Status: Lurker



i was brain storming some ideas, i think we should start at
the begining

► what is race? does it even exist?

the most main stream idea of race is that its a social
construct and i think that makes sense, tho some people use
that 2 say race doesnt exist. maybe thats technically true
but seems like a distraction. since its a social construct
and ppl exist in that social system in which its been used
apparently it has some meaning right?

anyways race the social construct seems correlated with
actual genetic features. obviously thers fuzzy situations
(which are favorites of ppl wanting to minimize discussion
on the topic race) such as mixed race ppl, or the category
hispanic which is sometimes considered a race in some parts
of the world like USA but serious ppl dont think every
single person in the world will fit in2 1 of a hand full of
discrete category. its obvious 2 serious thinkers how facile
that kinda point is but i see it brought up all the time so
wutevz.

1 hypersimplifyed analogy i think u can think with is think
of colors (like in a rainbow not people of color). u can say
colors dont actually exist there just a social construct we
use 2 communicate with each other. u might have a color
somewere around 500 nm and some1 might say its blue and
another person says green but there actually is a real
energy 2 the photons hitting ur eye even if its not a color
(and nobody try 2 sidetrack in2 a ontological argument abt
physics OK!!!!) also if u mix 2 colors like green and blue u
will get a color some ppl might call it green some ppl might
call it blue some might call it green-blue or turquoise or
aquamarine or teal or other names depending on ur language
and culture

obvs u cant compare ppl 2 colors but i think its a way of
understanding the goofyness of ppl trying 2 shutdown
discourse by saying mixed race ppl exist

are u following me ampi max and the other ppl on xlt? what
are ur thoughts? i dunno if ud call it race realist or semi
race realist but im just trying 2 approach it rationaly and
ope


 

offline wavephace from Aspiring Moderator on 2018-06-27 01:37 [#02555197]
Points: 2538 Status: Lurker



rationaly and open mindedly

i was under the character limit phobizero please fix this


 

offline AMPI MAX from United Kingdom on 2018-06-27 02:00 [#02555199]
Points: 10246 Status: Addict



yeah i think i agree with all that there so basically our
ideas of race (in the way most people refer to it) is made
of social constructs. some of this is lazy generalizing and
rumor, some of it is more honest accounts of the differences
between us noted by responsible observers.

but there is data that is one day, if it isnt already, gonna
be defining racial differences accurately.

my feelings: there is such a thing as race


 

offline AMPI MAX from United Kingdom on 2018-06-27 02:04 [#02555200]
Points: 10246 Status: Addict



im reading you correct here? tell me if my answer missed any
of your points at all


 

offline wavephace from Aspiring Moderator on 2018-06-27 02:31 [#02555202]
Points: 2538 Status: Lurker



ya i think so but maybe race as its used commonly 2day is
vastly insufficient 2 describe actual genetic differences
between populations that would b understood in the future,
maybe even 2 the point that it so different than the
suitable way that u couldnt even call them the same thing
"race"

obviously right now with 23 and me we can determine
ethnicity from dna and therefore probably race. (i dont
wanna bring in ethnicity 2 the conversation cuz it confuses
things even more) i think i read a story a few years ago
that they can even reconstruct as a computer model a persons
exact facial structure from dna and ironicly the only thing
they couldnt tell was skin color

ill try 2 make a new post 2morrow but im kinda busy now!!


 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2018-06-27 03:08 [#02555204]
Points: 20976 Status: Regular



LAZY_TITLE

best synposis on race I could find on the net



 

offline EpicMegatrax from Greatest Hits on 2018-06-27 03:55 [#02555205]
Points: 9948 Status: Regular



i half figure wavephace is either eric wareheim or the
world's most diehard eric wareheim fan


 

offline wavephace from Aspiring Moderator on 2018-06-28 04:45 [#02555291]
Points: 2538 Status: Lurker | Followup to EpicMegatrax: #02555205



nope im just BALL!!


 

offline wavephace from Aspiring Moderator on 2018-06-28 05:52 [#02555292]
Points: 2538 Status: Lurker



► whats racism? also, whats racist?

a lot of the friction of the discourse on racism arises cuz
it has has definitions which seem various, vague or even
contradictory. i think alot of that comes from intentional
or unintentional conflation of differnt types of racism ie
systemic, institutional, individual etc

individual/personal racism: is a belief/emotion held by a
individual person. its probably wat most ppl think when they
hear racism. it could be fear or hatred of a specific race
-OR- belief in the inherent superiority of 1 race over
another -OR- sometimes just the belief that race exists
(also called race realism). those beliefs might be described
as racist (adj). also a racist (n) is a person who believe 1
or more of the above (thats the only case where racist is a
noun)

already u can see how ppl can be confused cuz theres 3
different definitions of 1 stype of racism. i will try 2 do
institutional and systemic racism later but all thse things
are so wierdly defined and overlapping its hard 2 think
about them once u actually start thinking about them 4
real.

anyway what do u guys think about individual racism as i
described it


 

offline AMPI MAX from United Kingdom on 2018-06-28 22:40 [#02555319]
Points: 10246 Status: Addict



it might seem like you are hair splitting to some people but
im glad ur taking the time to point out these distinctions
between kinds of racism. you are right its hard cos it aint
exact at all.

race realizt: just the belief that race exists

i really dont think this should be in the Racism category at
all but many people do at the moment (bad way to think imo).
to me its just science. right? like the differences between
the races....its just impartial data...well anyway

fear or hatred of a specific race

- this is the kind of low level bigot stuff people most
often bump into. its not good to be a hater we all know
that. but the things people feel strongly about are none of
my business i guess. the way i feel about this type of
racist - i feel the same about a basic bully or insecure
phobe. so maybe i would fight them on playground or would
say they are not an agreeable person to be around. but no
need to lock em up or anything. right?

belief in the inherent superiority of 1 race

this is the big one. right? feel like this is the main issue
me and you gotta discuss. cos this is the big one. and it
pulls the the first 2 points into its gravity because race
supremacists use race realism/low level phobias to make a
case for supremacy. i guess if there wasnt such a thing as
theories of racial supremacy then the other two topics
wouldnt be so hard to talk straightfaced about


 

offline mohamed on 2018-06-29 21:26 [#02555388]
Points: 26102 Status: Regular | Show recordbag



just defend what is up to your morality, not what is up for
the masses or twitter


 

offline AMPI MAX from United Kingdom on 2018-06-29 23:22 [#02555393]
Points: 10246 Status: Addict



wavephace tell me if u think im on the right track here
buddy


 

offline wavephace from Aspiring Moderator on 2018-06-30 05:26 [#02555394]
Points: 2538 Status: Lurker



makes sense i think most decent ppl think being rude isnt
nice and expecially hurting ppl isnt.... #3 is defiantly
where the sticky situation arises and i think it will be
vital 2 examine the words inherent and superiority

► whats racism? also, whats racist? (cont'd)

i think its helpful 2 make a distinction between
institutional racism and systemic racism tho i think a lot
of other ppl might say there the same. i would say they
exist on a spectrum (maybe u could even say they exist on 1
axis whilst another axis is individual-societal and u could
map racism incidents 2 points in the plane like the
political compass)

systematic/institutional racism: institutional racism is
build into a institution/society/system which is informed by
individual racist attitudes of ppl with power in that
system. text book examples of it would b slavery, jim crow
laws, discriminatory hiring or renting. it can be codified
in the laws or by laws of the system, or just based on
trends in the attitudes of ppl with power in the system (eg
a police force wherein most of the officers are racists,
even if they dont have official racist policys). it might
even b based on implicit racism (theres another word 2 look
@) of the ppl in that system.

systemic racism: systemic racism is 1 of the more
interesting aspects of racism i think. it is a property of a
system where disparate outcomes either exist, arise or are
maintained. i would distinguish it from intitutional racism
by its level of intentionality. best example of systemic
racism is say if in the usa all the (individual) racists
suddenly stop being racists, but the vast disparities
between black and whites continues after 100s of years cuz
wealth and knowledge is transmitted from parents 2 children
(usually the same race) and there not starting from the same
place. another example is if there are mean genetic
differences between races which would give rise 2
disparities. systemic racism imo is y the most devoted
antiracists tend 2 have socialist leanings


 

offline wavephace from Aspiring Moderator on 2018-06-30 14:20 [#02555403]
Points: 2538 Status: Lurker



both of the above can b used 2 describe a system as racist


 

offline wavephace from Aspiring Moderator on 2018-06-30 14:36 [#02555404]
Points: 2538 Status: Lurker



1 of the most striking illustrations of systemic racism that
i think will stick in my mind 4 years is the photo of ivanka
trump and her kid and the umbrage it caused among the left
LAZY_TITLE

for a while now ppl having been saying stuff like "reading 2
ur kids is racist" cuz it upholds white supremacy(*) in a
unequal system. in other words black ppl are less likely
then whites 2 read to there kids 4 wutever reason, so the
inequality is perpetuated thru generations. the argument can
b boiled down to "if ur white and u care about ur own
(white) kids, ur a racist" (notice how i shifted from
societal 2 individual racism there?)

but in a way there right.... if u accept systemic racism as
something which perpetuates the extant inequalities in a
system, without intentionality, parents raising there own
children (in a system where inequality exists) IS a
condition systemic racism....and thats 1 of what i think is
the big problems of racism now

*another term 2 think about later


 

offline mermaidman from the indian ocean on 2018-06-30 14:44 [#02555407]
Points: 3675 Status: Regular



race is when your skin color is different and you feel an
urge to suicide attack white people


 

offline Indeksical from Phobiazero Damage Control (United Kingdom) on 2018-06-30 15:10 [#02555412]
Points: 9301 Status: Regular | Followup to RussellDust: #02555159 | Show recordbag







 

offline AMPI MAX from United Kingdom on 2018-07-07 22:54 [#02556079]
Points: 10246 Status: Addict



wavephace sorry dude!
its just been way too hot to discuss racism right now. dont
worry ill get back to you soon promise


 

offline mohamed on 2018-07-09 17:09 [#02556166]
Points: 26102 Status: Regular | Followup to mermaidman: #02555407 | Show recordbag



look you minor cock sucker, what am i supposed to grasp here


 

offline mermaidman from the indian ocean on 2018-07-09 17:16 [#02556167]
Points: 3675 Status: Regular



dear dick lover,
i already know you're a racist.
i already said everything there is to say.
you can go back to sucking dick now.
adios


 

offline mohamed on 2018-07-09 17:32 [#02556169]
Points: 26102 Status: Regular | Show recordbag



you said nothing but bullshit. true fucking bullshit.


 

offline mohamed on 2018-07-09 17:34 [#02556170]
Points: 26102 Status: Regular | Show recordbag



and im a racist. you fucking pedo omg


 

offline mohamed on 2018-07-09 17:40 [#02556173]
Points: 26102 Status: Regular | Show recordbag



you are truly like a man i know, who used to spit all the
smoke when we smoked together towards the negroes in case
the police arrived.


 

offline mohamed on 2018-07-09 17:40 [#02556174]
Points: 26102 Status: Regular | Show recordbag



guiltyneeeeeees


 

offline mermaidman from the indian ocean on 2018-07-09 17:59 [#02556180]
Points: 3675 Status: Regular



lol it's my fault i thought you'd understand #02555407 was a
joke as it's pretty fucking obvious again, i just said you
were unable to grasp anything a second ago. it's truly
entertaining to see you are dumber than i can imagine


 

offline mermaidman from the indian ocean on 2018-07-09 18:00 [#02556181]
Points: 3675 Status: Regular



and of course the hissy fits, keep'em coming


 

offline mohamed on 2018-07-09 18:01 [#02556182]
Points: 26102 Status: Regular | Show recordbag



sure, obvious joke mate


 

offline mohamed on 2018-07-09 18:01 [#02556183]
Points: 26102 Status: Regular | Show recordbag



cant wait to see what is coming from you next


 

offline mermaidman from the indian ocean on 2018-07-09 18:05 [#02556184]
Points: 3675 Status: Regular



LOOOL!! you really think it was serious don't you? wow! at
first i said nah, he's stupid but he can't be that stupid.
but here we are


 

offline mermaidman from the indian ocean on 2018-07-09 18:06 [#02556185]
Points: 3675 Status: Regular



whatever my moron friend just keep having a hissy fit or
whatever i gotta go


 

offline mohamed on 2018-07-09 18:07 [#02556186]
Points: 26102 Status: Regular | Show recordbag



here we are dude, continue your arguments about jews and
urge of suice attacks. i cant wait to come home and chat
with you, you really entertaining. play monkey, play with
the balls.


 

offline AMPI MAX from United Kingdom on 2018-07-18 21:16 [#02556927]
Points: 10246 Status: Addict | Followup to wavephace: #02555404



ok dude! so you have made some good points about racism.
cant say i have strong disagreements with anything you said
so far pal. the distinction u try to make between systematic
and systemic is interesting, but we dont have to go down
that road unless you really wanted to. mostly because it
sickens me to have to discuss it.
(inequality exists. it can never be fair to say 'you are
racist cos you read more books/eat more food/have more stuff
than some other race'. what a disgusting idea)

inherent superiority

now i said this is the big one for a reason but it might not
be the reason you think. if someone deeply feels they are
better because of their genes/skin than someone else then i
guess they are allowed to. everyone goes around thinking
they are better than others anyway (specially the ones who
pretend they are humble). society can survive that.

the reason i think the superiority one is a big issue is
this: it disassembles liberal(free) civil society, right? if
people prioritise race as a definition of the individuals
role in society then a bunch of liberal concepts collapse -

mobility and movement disappear. why learn to become
something more (education) if you ARE a race, what more is
there to BECOME if you just ARE? all knowledge that dosnt
serve the success of ur race will just be indulgence and
corruption. you cant move because ur destiny, ur
designation, ur motivation is already decided by the genes
and they are set. so there are no questions which means
there are no choices which means there is no movement. this
isnt just a byproduct of grand race theories - this is the
point of them, right? you see what i mean here?


 

offline AMPI MAX from United Kingdom on 2018-07-18 21:17 [#02556928]
Points: 10246 Status: Addict



when u have the time tell me what u think about that


 

offline wavephace from Aspiring Moderator on 2018-07-20 03:59 [#02556966]
Points: 2538 Status: Lurker



so i think u mainly expressed these two ideas

1) a widespread belief in a society that 1 race is superior
2 another (whether or not the believe is based in reality)
will necessarily lead 2 a encroachment on the liberties of
or psychic oppression of ppl of the race presumed inferior

2) theories of racial differences are post hoc
rationalizations 4 hatred or a desire 2 oppress

point 2 seems based on assumption of the motivations of
other ppl which is always a route 2 be wary of imo. a person
with these theories could just believe that it is true
without any other motivation than truthseeking, or they
could even have (what they consider 2 b) the best interest
of the other group in mind (for example in america forcing
the indian kids 2 go to western style schools - tho that is
based on culture rather then race) (or - another example -
if u take them at there word, alot of ethno nationalists
will say ALL ppl are better off living w geneticly similar
ppl)

point 1 is more interesting and looking thru history u will
find loads of examples of belief of racial superiority
leading 2 oppression and atrocities even and there surely
seems 2 be a trend in that direction. but like i said above
there could also be beneficent intentions resulting from it
(eg. the idea that 1's own race has a moral duty 2 improve
the conditions of another - "white mans burden" etc)
(notwithstanding that such interventions often do lead 2
diminishment of liberties or could have other unforeseen
consequences)

1 think i noticed is we havent addressed the idea of what is
meant by superiority but im kinda tired now so i will just
give a question 2 ponder 4 now: do we even accept that a
individual can b inherently superior 2 other
individuals?


 

offline AMPI MAX from United Kingdom on 2018-07-20 17:55 [#02557000]
Points: 10246 Status: Addict



wavephace can you try a different reply? you have completely
misread me here. im talkin about grand race naratives and
what they intend to do to liberal society.

its not about less rights for inferiors - its got to be less
rights for 'us' (because liberty makes us corrupt)


 

offline AMPI MAX from United Kingdom on 2018-07-20 21:17 [#02557017]
Points: 10246 Status: Addict



umbroman. you know what im saying here?


 

offline wavephace from Aspiring Moderator on 2018-07-20 23:35 [#02557024]
Points: 2538 Status: Lurker



not sure im following u....could u give a example of grand
race narrative? like the idea not only of superiority but of
something like manifest destiny or nazism? or are u talking
like total abnegation of individuality 2 the point where a
persons defined solely by there race


 

offline AMPI MAX from United Kingdom on 2018-07-21 00:11 [#02557026]
Points: 10246 Status: Addict | Followup to wavephace: #02557024



thats closer to what i mean.
ok so we gonna focus on nazism for now.

nazis feel the world is corrupt (not just germany but the
entire HUMAN world). it is corrupt because humans believe
false concepts that will make us all degenerate. we compete,
we dont synchronize, we have incompatible wills, we do
things that constantly thwart the possibility of a total and
complete perfection within this existence - some sort of
singularity some sort of year 0.

instead a grand narrative where everyone believes and obeys
the laws of race war will clean all the corruption away. all
races will compete for the total control of this existence -
destroying all weak people, but also destroying all of the
excessive and debasing ideas of enlightenment and even
religion. there will be NOTHING but the strong defeating the
weak in a permanent war (none of christs mercy, none of
europes humanism - this is all JEWISH corruption). the
system (liberal) that allows and protects the right to
embark on any other endeavors would be devoured by the
superiority and simple elegance of violence. this would be
paradise



 

offline AMPI MAX from United Kingdom on 2018-07-21 00:17 [#02557027]
Points: 10246 Status: Addict



communism seemed to think the same thing but it wanted class
struggle instead of race struggle. right?


 

offline AMPI MAX from United Kingdom on 2018-07-21 00:23 [#02557028]
Points: 10246 Status: Addict



im saying there is a kind of racism that isnt really abuot
racism. its about destroying liberal universal concepts -
because they are the most disgusting thing ever to have
existed.


 

offline wavephace from Aspiring Moderator on 2018-07-21 02:36 [#02557034]
Points: 2538 Status: Lurker



so are u saying racism (racial supremacy) itself isnt the
primary issue per se rather that racism presents a
impediment 2 the propagation of and can act to roll back
universal liberal values?

i can see theres some validity 2 that....4 example a leader
harnessing pre existing racist attitudes to generate support
4 policies that reduce universal liberal values...and the
presence (or imposition) of a grand racial narrative in the
population could super charge said leaders support

what about the reverse if a population were persuaded 2
support universal liberal concepts would the amount of
racial supremacist attitudes (or racial hatred) decrease?


 

offline RussellDust on 2018-07-21 12:23 [#02557039]
Points: 12210 Status: Regular | Followup to AMPI MAX: #02557026



Yes that’s quite a fair comment. though maybe you could
use the past term when you refer to Nazis. There’s a few I
guess, but it’s gone in various directions. Also what
you’re describing went along with race (primarily) but
also anything else they saw as a threat, famously including
art, and literature, wouldn’t you agree? Nazism was the
fruit of its time, antisemitism in Europe and Germany
especially happening way before Hitler took matters into his
own hands.

What are your views on the expedition to Gibet?

I just read your post by accident. I might as well read the
whole thread.


 

offline RussellDust on 2018-07-21 12:24 [#02557040]
Points: 12210 Status: Regular



Tibet*. XD


 


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