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you wanted to talk about racism |
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LOL |
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i was brain storming some ideas, i think we should start at the begining â–º what is race? does it even exist? the most main stream idea of race is that its a social construct and i think that makes sense, tho some people use that 2 say race doesnt exist. maybe thats technically true but seems like a distraction. since its a social construct and ppl exist in that social system in which its been used apparently it has some meaning right? anyways race the social construct seems correlated with actual genetic features. obviously thers fuzzy situations (which are favorites of ppl wanting to minimize discussion on the topic race) such as mixed race ppl, or the category hispanic which is sometimes considered a race in some parts of the world like USA but serious ppl dont think every single person in the world will fit in2 1 of a hand full of discrete category. its obvious 2 serious thinkers how facile that kinda point is but i see it brought up all the time so wutevz. 1 hypersimplifyed analogy i think u can think with is think of colors (like in a rainbow not people of color). u can say colors dont actually exist there just a social construct we use 2 communicate with each other. u might have a color somewere around 500 nm and some1 might say its blue and another person says green but there actually is a real energy 2 the photons hitting ur eye even if its not a color (and nobody try 2 sidetrack in2 a ontological argument abt physics OK!!!!) also if u mix 2 colors like green and blue u will get a color some ppl might call it green some ppl might call it blue some might call it green-blue or turquoise or aquamarine or teal or other names depending on ur language and culture obvs u cant compare ppl 2 colors but i think its a way of understanding the goofyness of ppl trying 2 shutdown discourse by saying mixed race ppl exist are u following me ampi max and the other ppl on xlt? what are ur thoughts? i dunno if ud call it race realist or semi race realist but im just trying 2 approach it rationaly and ope |
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rationaly and open mindedly i was under the character limit phobizero please fix this |
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yeah i think i agree with all that there so basically our ideas of race (in the way most people refer to it) is made of social constructs. some of this is lazy generalizing and rumor, some of it is more honest accounts of the differences between us noted by responsible observers. but there is data that is one day, if it isnt already, gonna be defining racial differences accurately. my feelings: there is such a thing as race |
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im reading you correct here? tell me if my answer missed any of your points at all |
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ya i think so but maybe race as its used commonly 2day is vastly insufficient 2 describe actual genetic differences between populations that would b understood in the future, maybe even 2 the point that it so different than the suitable way that u couldnt even call them the same thing "race" obviously right now with 23 and me we can determine ethnicity from dna and therefore probably race. (i dont wanna bring in ethnicity 2 the conversation cuz it confuses things even more) i think i read a story a few years ago that they can even reconstruct as a computer model a persons exact facial structure from dna and ironicly the only thing they couldnt tell was skin color ill try 2 make a new post 2morrow but im kinda busy now!! |
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best synposis on race I could find on the net |
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i half figure wavephace is either eric wareheim or the world's most diehard eric wareheim fan |
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nope im just BALL!! |
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â–º whats racism? also, whats racist? a lot of the friction of the discourse on racism arises cuz it has has definitions which seem various, vague or even contradictory. i think alot of that comes from intentional or unintentional conflation of differnt types of racism ie systemic, institutional, individual etc individual/personal racism: is a belief/emotion held by a individual person. its probably wat most ppl think when they hear racism. it could be fear or hatred of a specific race -OR- belief in the inherent superiority of 1 race over another -OR- sometimes just the belief that race exists (also called race realism). those beliefs might be described as racist (adj). also a racist (n) is a person who believe 1 or more of the above (thats the only case where racist is a noun) already u can see how ppl can be confused cuz theres 3 different definitions of 1 stype of racism. i will try 2 do institutional and systemic racism later but all thse things are so wierdly defined and overlapping its hard 2 think about them once u actually start thinking about them 4 real. anyway what do u guys think about individual racism as i described it |
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it might seem like you are hair splitting to some people but im glad ur taking the time to point out these distinctions between kinds of racism. you are right its hard cos it aint exact at all. race realizt: just the belief that race exists i really dont think this should be in the Racism category at all but many people do at the moment (bad way to think imo). to me its just science. right? like the differences between the races....its just impartial data...well anyway fear or hatred of a specific race - this is the kind of low level bigot stuff people most often bump into. its not good to be a hater we all know that. but the things people feel strongly about are none of my business i guess. the way i feel about this type of racist - i feel the same about a basic bully or insecure phobe. so maybe i would fight them on playground or would say they are not an agreeable person to be around. but no need to lock em up or anything. right? belief in the inherent superiority of 1 race this is the big one. right? feel like this is the main issue me and you gotta discuss. cos this is the big one. and it pulls the the first 2 points into its gravity because race supremacists use race realism/low level phobias to make a case for supremacy. i guess if there wasnt such a thing as theories of racial supremacy then the other two topics wouldnt be so hard to talk straightfaced about |
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just defend what is up to your morality, not what is up for the masses or twitter |
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wavephace tell me if u think im on the right track here buddy |
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makes sense i think most decent ppl think being rude isnt nice and expecially hurting ppl isnt.... #3 is defiantly where the sticky situation arises and i think it will be vital 2 examine the words inherent and superiority â–º whats racism? also, whats racist? (cont'd) i think its helpful 2 make a distinction between institutional racism and systemic racism tho i think a lot of other ppl might say there the same. i would say they exist on a spectrum (maybe u could even say they exist on 1 axis whilst another axis is individual-societal and u could map racism incidents 2 points in the plane like the political compass) systematic/institutional racism: institutional racism is build into a institution/society/system which is informed by individual racist attitudes of ppl with power in that system. text book examples of it would b slavery, jim crow laws, discriminatory hiring or renting. it can be codified in the laws or by laws of the system, or just based on trends in the attitudes of ppl with power in the system (eg a police force wherein most of the officers are racists, even if they dont have official racist policys). it might even b based on implicit racism (theres another word 2 look @) of the ppl in that system. systemic racism: systemic racism is 1 of the more interesting aspects of racism i think. it is a property of a system where disparate outcomes either exist, arise or are maintained. i would distinguish it from intitutional racism by its level of intentionality. best example of systemic racism is say if in the usa all the (individual) racists suddenly stop being racists, but the vast disparities between black and whites continues after 100s of years cuz wealth and knowledge is transmitted from parents 2 children (usually the same race) and there not starting from the same place. another example is if there are mean genetic differences between races which would give rise 2 disparities. systemic racism imo is y the most devoted antiracists tend 2 have socialist leanings |
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both of the above can b used 2 describe a system as racist |
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1 of the most striking illustrations of systemic racism that i think will stick in my mind 4 years is the photo of ivanka trump and her kid and the umbrage it caused among the left for a while now ppl having been saying stuff like "reading 2 ur kids is racist" cuz it upholds white supremacy(*) in a unequal system. in other words black ppl are less likely then whites 2 read to there kids 4 wutever reason, so the inequality is perpetuated thru generations. the argument can b boiled down to "if ur white and u care about ur own (white) kids, ur a racist" (notice how i shifted from societal 2 individual racism there?) but in a way there right.... if u accept systemic racism as something which perpetuates the extant inequalities in a system, without intentionality, parents raising there own children (in a system where inequality exists) IS a condition systemic racism....and thats 1 of what i think is the big problems of racism now *another term 2 think about later |
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race is when your skin color is different and you feel an urge to suicide attack white people |
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wavephace sorry dude! its just been way too hot to discuss racism right now. dont worry ill get back to you soon promise |
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look you minor cock sucker, what am i supposed to grasp here |
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dear dick lover, i already know you're a racist. i already said everything there is to say. you can go back to sucking dick now. adios |
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you said nothing but bullshit. true fucking bullshit. |
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and im a racist. you fucking pedo omg |
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you are truly like a man i know, who used to spit all the smoke when we smoked together towards the negroes in case the police arrived. |
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guiltyneeeeeees |
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lol it's my fault i thought you'd understand #02555407 was a joke as it's pretty fucking obvious again, i just said you were unable to grasp anything a second ago. it's truly entertaining to see you are dumber than i can imagine |
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and of course the hissy fits, keep'em coming |
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sure, obvious joke mate |
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cant wait to see what is coming from you next |
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LOOOL!! you really think it was serious don't you? wow! at first i said nah, he's stupid but he can't be that stupid. but here we are |
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whatever my moron friend just keep having a hissy fit or whatever i gotta go |
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here we are dude, continue your arguments about jews and urge of suice attacks. i cant wait to come home and chat with you, you really entertaining. play monkey, play with the balls. |
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ok dude! so you have made some good points about racism. cant say i have strong disagreements with anything you said so far pal. the distinction u try to make between systematic and systemic is interesting, but we dont have to go down that road unless you really wanted to. mostly because it sickens me to have to discuss it. (inequality exists. it can never be fair to say 'you are racist cos you read more books/eat more food/have more stuff than some other race'. what a disgusting idea) inherent superiority now i said this is the big one for a reason but it might not be the reason you think. if someone deeply feels they are better because of their genes/skin than someone else then i guess they are allowed to. everyone goes around thinking they are better than others anyway (specially the ones who pretend they are humble). society can survive that. the reason i think the superiority one is a big issue is this: it disassembles liberal(free) civil society, right? if people prioritise race as a definition of the individuals role in society then a bunch of liberal concepts collapse - mobility and movement disappear. why learn to become something more (education) if you ARE a race, what more is there to BECOME if you just ARE? all knowledge that dosnt serve the success of ur race will just be indulgence and corruption. you cant move because ur destiny, ur designation, ur motivation is already decided by the genes and they are set. so there are no questions which means there are no choices which means there is no movement. this isnt just a byproduct of grand race theories - this is the point of them, right? you see what i mean here? |
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when u have the time tell me what u think about that |
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so i think u mainly expressed these two ideas 1) a widespread belief in a society that 1 race is superior 2 another (whether or not the believe is based in reality) will necessarily lead 2 a encroachment on the liberties of or psychic oppression of ppl of the race presumed inferior 2) theories of racial differences are post hoc rationalizations 4 hatred or a desire 2 oppress point 2 seems based on assumption of the motivations of other ppl which is always a route 2 be wary of imo. a person with these theories could just believe that it is true without any other motivation than truthseeking, or they could even have (what they consider 2 b) the best interest of the other group in mind (for example in america forcing the indian kids 2 go to western style schools - tho that is based on culture rather then race) (or - another example - if u take them at there word, alot of ethno nationalists will say ALL ppl are better off living w geneticly similar ppl) point 1 is more interesting and looking thru history u will find loads of examples of belief of racial superiority leading 2 oppression and atrocities even and there surely seems 2 be a trend in that direction. but like i said above there could also be beneficent intentions resulting from it (eg. the idea that 1's own race has a moral duty 2 improve the conditions of another - "white mans burden" etc) (notwithstanding that such interventions often do lead 2 diminishment of liberties or could have other unforeseen consequences) 1 think i noticed is we havent addressed the idea of what is meant by superiority but im kinda tired now so i will just give a question 2 ponder 4 now: do we even accept that a individual can b inherently superior 2 other individuals? |
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wavephace can you try a different reply? you have completely misread me here. im talkin about grand race naratives and what they intend to do to liberal society. its not about less rights for inferiors - its got to be less rights for 'us' (because liberty makes us corrupt) |
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umbroman. you know what im saying here? |
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not sure im following u....could u give a example of grand race narrative? like the idea not only of superiority but of something like manifest destiny or nazism? or are u talking like total abnegation of individuality 2 the point where a persons defined solely by there race |
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thats closer to what i mean. ok so we gonna focus on nazism for now. nazis feel the world is corrupt (not just germany but the entire HUMAN world). it is corrupt because humans believe false concepts that will make us all degenerate. we compete, we dont synchronize, we have incompatible wills, we do things that constantly thwart the possibility of a total and complete perfection within this existence - some sort of singularity some sort of year 0. instead a grand narrative where everyone believes and obeys the laws of race war will clean all the corruption away. all races will compete for the total control of this existence - destroying all weak people, but also destroying all of the excessive and debasing ideas of enlightenment and even religion. there will be NOTHING but the strong defeating the weak in a permanent war (none of christs mercy, none of europes humanism - this is all JEWISH corruption). the system (liberal) that allows and protects the right to embark on any other endeavors would be devoured by the superiority and simple elegance of violence. this would be paradise |
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communism seemed to think the same thing but it wanted class struggle instead of race struggle. right? |
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im saying there is a kind of racism that isnt really abuot racism. its about destroying liberal universal concepts - because they are the most disgusting thing ever to have existed. |
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so are u saying racism (racial supremacy) itself isnt the primary issue per se rather that racism presents a impediment 2 the propagation of and can act to roll back universal liberal values? i can see theres some validity 2 that....4 example a leader harnessing pre existing racist attitudes to generate support 4 policies that reduce universal liberal values...and the presence (or imposition) of a grand racial narrative in the population could super charge said leaders support what about the reverse if a population were persuaded 2 support universal liberal concepts would the amount of racial supremacist attitudes (or racial hatred) decrease? |
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Yes that’s quite a fair comment. though maybe you could use the past term when you refer to Nazis. There’s a few I guess, but it’s gone in various directions. Also what you’re describing went along with race (primarily) but also anything else they saw as a threat, famously including art, and literature, wouldn’t you agree? Nazism was the fruit of its time, antisemitism in Europe and Germany especially happening way before Hitler took matters into his own hands. What are your views on the expedition to Gibet? I just read your post by accident. I might as well read the whole thread. |
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Tibet*. XD |
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