You are not logged in!

Log in

Now online (1)
...and 7 guests

Last 5 registered

Browse members...
Members 8025
Messages 2539714
Today 3
Topics 123579
Messageboard index
Is Xltronic Killing Dance Music?

offline fleetmouse from Horny for Truth on 2018-01-07 13:46 [#02542002]
Points: 18042 Status: Lurker

Are Amateurs Ruining Dance Music?


offline umbroman3 from United Kingdom on 2018-01-07 14:37 [#02542006]
Points: 2810 Status: Lurker

Mc conditioner
You can never say these boys is amateur


offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2018-01-07 14:41 [#02542007]
Points: 21128 Status: Regular

hard to find the wheat from the chaff, but yeah does seem to
be an awful lot of dross nowadays, usually from art school


offline RussellDust on 2018-01-07 16:25 [#02542012]
Points: 12349 Status: Addict

I reckon a lot of the artists we love would consider
themselves amateur as far as any training goes. We could
argue the same about approach.

It’s really terrible for an “artist” to hold such
views. Sickening. Little man thinks he’s part of an elite.
A club for members. Diarrhoea satchel.


offline fleetmouse from Horny for Truth on 2018-01-07 17:02 [#02542015]
Points: 18042 Status: Lurker | Followup to RussellDust: #02542012

the idea that it's wealthy dilettantes who pursue DJ careers
ruining things - that's not because there are too many
amateurs and the talent pool is diluted, it's because of
structural changes in media distribution and concentration
of wealth

I guess because this guy is a writer he has fantasies about
"pro" music journalists earning a good living writing
"legitimate" articles, but that's also bullshit. If you're
Paris Hilton you can afford to buy a time slot at Ibiza, or
perhaps write as an unpaid intern at a historic and dying


offline mohamed on 2018-01-07 18:33 [#02542020]
Points: 26234 Status: Regular | Show recordbag

i feel like im dying a little while i was reading so i
stopped, anyway i feel like the concept of amaterurism
ruining dance music has come out of nowhere, is there even
something to ruin? whats left of dance music, burial and who


offline RussellDust on 2018-01-07 19:01 [#02542022]
Points: 12349 Status: Addict | Followup to mohamed: #02542020

Don’t die! Yeah, Burial came from amateurism.

In fact some amateurs lose what was wonderful about their
music once they become “pro”.


offline mohamed on 2018-01-07 19:51 [#02542031]
Points: 26234 Status: Regular | Show recordbag

burial hasnt lost anything along the way, first actually of
our generation who makes a bridge with the 90s as dance


offline mohamed on 2018-01-07 20:08 [#02542032]
Points: 26234 Status: Regular | Show recordbag

amateurs are those who like squarepusher but bash burial


offline mohamed on 2018-01-07 20:10 [#02542033]
Points: 26234 Status: Regular | Show recordbag

they can stick their 'knowledge' up their ass and never
reveal any mistery.


offline welt on 2018-01-07 20:19 [#02542034]
Points: 1862 Status: Lurker

"Do you want to assist people trying to make a quick buck,
or do you want to help committed artists pay their bills?"

Neither, I want to listen to music. Wildly wrong


offline RussellDust on 2018-01-07 22:25 [#02542037]
Points: 12349 Status: Addict | Followup to welt: #02542034

I don’t see things that way.

I just want to listen to music, and watch films, read books
and comics too.

But if that was all I cared about, I would steal

I don’t have much money, and I do download music and
movies/series, and will read some comics online. But when it
comes to those who really touch me, who are really important
to me, or when I read an amazing comic online: I want to
participate. Because I know that otherwise if we all just
steal, eventually the only people left with enough time to
make their art without worrying about money and having to
work will be the people with a lot of money ; and we both
know having money doesn’t make you a good artist.


offline fleetmouse from Horny for Truth on 2018-01-07 23:10 [#02542038]
Points: 18042 Status: Lurker

I like bandcamp, most of the money goes to the artist, they
have lossless formats, and the albums are usually five to
ten bucks, very reasonable.


offline Indeksical from Phobiazero Damage Control (United Kingdom) on 2018-01-08 13:30 [#02542053]
Points: 9327 Status: Regular | Show recordbag

I disagree with so much of this article, it's a total mess

Even the initial quote is stupid, amateurism is not only an
inherent part of dance music but off all modern musical
genres and has been essential in shaping them. This goes for
all areas of the musical chain, no amateurism in promotion
and show production and you have no scuzzy rock clubs, no
warehouse raves. No amateurism in the music itself and you
have entire genres that cease to exist, including large
swathes of electronic music.

As the article progresses he starts to argue that it's
populism that's ruining dance music, in fact he seems to
lack an understanding of what constitutes the underground at
all and his article veers from it's initial point in to
personal issues. His problem is with the democratisation of
music production and distribution and his perceived
'cheapening' of dance music simply by virtue of it being
popular. He essentially thinks everyone is stupid but him
and his mates. The myriad of problems he lists are not new,
not exclusive to dance music and only exist if you have a
limited frame of reference or few chances to interact with
live music. Sure they have been amplified this century
through sheer information overload but not necessarily to
the detriment of music.

These 'part timers', glamour chasers along for the ride, do
not represent the the spirit of any genre they crop up in.
They're the epitome of populist pandering and the antithesis
of amateur art. How does making a cookie cutter tune from
presets and sample packs represent the underground of
anything? The problem here is that normal people are liking
his music and with that comes the pitfalls of any popular
genre. They don't ruin a genre as large as dance music,
they're a symptom of its popularity and with dance music
being such a textured, varied thing they represent a tiny
proportion of the available output.


offline Indeksical from Phobiazero Damage Control (United Kingdom) on 2018-01-08 13:31 [#02542054]
Points: 9327 Status: Regular | Show recordbag

'For better or worse, dance music is generally not
considered serious by the majority of the more established
music media' utter bollocks. What established media are we
talking about here? Rolling Stone Magazine? Top of the Pops?
Dance music is well regarded in academic circles, providing
you have the quality to back it up, like all genres.
Specialist press is the way the underground is represented
now due to the sheer volume of information, unless the
author is beamoaning dance music not being on the same
popularity level as simple pop music? This is confusing,
does he want dance music to be more popular (and so increase
the instances of things like part timers, fair weather fans
etc) or does he want it to be legitimate?

This feeds in to his point about amateurism in music
jornalism. Let's ignore zines, that have been the
self-produced mouthpieces of music for decades, and move on
to the crux of the authors problem. There's simply too much
going on for it to be covered completely by 'competant'
writers. How is that in any way a bad thing? There are
hundred of shows in every genre of music going on around the
world every day and thanks to the internet we have the
possibility of learning about all of them. When something is
emerging from the underground its apostles are usually the
young and hungry, barely able to verbalise their thoughts
and so I have no problem with them being the ones filling in
the huge hole that music reportage has in the internet age.
The good writing almost always comes with retrospective
analysis anyway.

With his comments about PR firms it seems the authors main
concern is not actually the quality of the writing by these
'amateur' journalists but that they simply have shit taste
and lack any semblance of rational thought. It also puts
forward the idea that what these people genuinely like is
not legitimate music. I think this is really the crux of the
article, 'people like things I think are shit, that's
amateur and harms dance music because I'm a 'true


offline Indeksical from Phobiazero Damage Control (United Kingdom) on 2018-01-08 13:32 [#02542055]
Points: 9327 Status: Regular | Show recordbag

These 'play the music business' DJs are again nothing new,
an extension of the millions of covers bands that have
filled small bars for decades. The author seems to be
experiencing popular music for the first time while also
having never really been a part of the underground,
exisiting in this sort of limbo where everything is not what
he wants it to be. I wonder if he's an embittered aspiring
DJ, perhaps in his late-20s, early-30s, in a US state with a
very narrow scene?*

'Once this kind of artist has infiltrated the journalists
and music charts by paying for it, they are now being taken
seriously by some dance fans for almost no real reason
outside of media hype.' Holy shit! It's almost like
popularity can have zero correlation to your perception of
quality?! Again, is this all about popularity for the things
YOU like?

Promoters hiring the latest trend is not exclusive to dance
music and not in any way surprising in the commercial realm,
they have to make money too. I really am starting to think
he is bitter now, if you're 'actually interested in making
outstanding art' why would you want to play at these sorts
of populist events curated without a soul who book
'undeserving artists' for people who don't care, unless it's
for money? The author seems to want popularity for the
underground without any of the trappings that come with

His comments about how amateur promoters and DJs ruin the
long term dance music fans relationship to the music is
utter rubbish. If you've been going to shows for a certain
genre of music for a while one shit show isn't going to turn
you off. You're invested in the music and have come to
understand what it is about it that you like, if listening
to bad examples puts you off a genre you were never really
interested in the first place and, far more likely, you
moving away from music in your 20s simply means you're


offline Indeksical from Phobiazero Damage Control (United Kingdom) on 2018-01-08 13:33 [#02542056]
Points: 9327 Status: Regular | Show recordbag

His notion that there is a high turnover of dance music fans
shows a shocking lack of awareness to the fact that there is
simply a high turnover of music fans in general. Music
resonates with far more people when they're younger and as
life takes hold it simply becomes a less important factor in
the vast majority of peoples lives, it's not a reflection on
the quality of music they were listening to. Again the
author seems to think that basically people are stupid and
don't know what's good for them.

'Everything gets set back to zero again, typically as each
hyped subgenre’s tenure expires.' Welcome to music. This
is not necessarily a quality issue, music reflects the time
of its creation.

'Where does this leave the true professionals? Where does it
leave the skilled DJs, young and old, who are committed to
dance music for the long haul?' smells like self insert.
'True professionals' is almost insulting.

Where is this idea that the music press are universally
positive coming from? Some examples of artists who were, in
the authors eye, unfairly promoted would do a lot to service
his argument.


offline Indeksical from Phobiazero Damage Control (United Kingdom) on 2018-01-08 13:33 [#02542057]
Points: 9327 Status: Regular | Show recordbag

'this isn’t about me deciding which artists or tracks
deserve the hype; it’s about all of us being critical and
making our own minds up about which producers and DJs
deserve our support.' How can he type this as the conclusion
to what he's written above? He clearly has very strong
feelings about what is 'good', which evidently does not
chime with this notion of free thinking critical analysis.
What he's essentially saying is 'don't listen to this song
or go to that gig that hasn't been put on by a 'true
professional' like me'. The masses will go to the shit they
like because it's on, they want to dance and it sounds good
to them. You and your bastions of true art can go to the
smaller, actually underground shows because that's where
these things reside, they don't need popularity, they're
art. That the author clamours for populist recognition for
artistic expression says a lot more about him, his limited
worldview and his genuine intentions in his musical pursuits
than it does about the state of music.

* clicked his twitter bio at the end and it says 'You sold
platinum round the world, I sold wood in the hood... For
booking in this solar system contact'


offline Indeksical from Phobiazero Damage Control (United Kingdom) on 2018-01-08 13:33 [#02542058]
Points: 9327 Status: Regular | Show recordbag

wow that was long.


offline Indeksical from Phobiazero Damage Control (United Kingdom) on 2018-01-08 13:40 [#02542059]
Points: 9327 Status: Regular | Show recordbag

It basically seems like he thinks dance music is ruined
unless it's a huge money spinning entity which is also in no
way populist or corporate. It's completely removed from


offline fleetmouse from Horny for Truth on 2018-01-08 14:02 [#02542060]
Points: 18042 Status: Lurker

'Everything gets set back to zero again, typically as
each hyped subgenre’s tenure expires.' Welcome to music.
This is not necessarily a quality issue, music reflects the
time of its creation.

yeah this is the crux of the piece for me, he doesn't get
that the ephemeral nature of pop music culture is its beauty
not its weakness. It's not a fucking dynasty where honoured
traditions are handed down to the next generation. It's kids
and young adults sniffing glue and yelling and fucking
around with whatever technology is cheap and available.


offline ijonspeches from 109P/Swift-Tuttle on 2018-01-08 14:05 [#02542062]
Points: 5179 Status: Lurker | Show recordbag

sometimes you have to "ask a question out loud" to prove its
falsety. one thing is sure though, there is way more
music/art on the planet than can ever be mass marketed. so
inevidently the cut of the big ones will be deluded.

yes, a possible difference for writers i see in they have to
dig deeper into the rabbit hole, as opposed to wrtiting a
critique to an album you get paid to review and everyone
hears about due to its big promotion.

but since ive always believed the music industries control
of the media and control of the artists was in their best
interest and not in the artists´s´s´s or the listeners,
(at least that is what every music documentation says). i
couldnt care less about the writers making a living
advertising what the music industry wants to sell to us.

i stop right here,
sexical, that is a loong article, i still have to finish :)


offline Cliff Glitchard from DEEP DOWN INSIDE on 2018-01-08 14:16 [#02542063]
Points: 3827 Status: Regular

Yes. Well, anything by me is. Which is my fiendishly evil
plan. By making cheap unimaginative, poorly mixed and barely
paletable, dance music I'm hoping to deaden the art for the
true professionals I bitterly detest and rival.

Mwahahaha. You'll all pay! You'll ALL pay!

* Spins around twirling his cape before escaping into the
dark night by scootech *


offline ijonspeches from 109P/Swift-Tuttle on 2018-01-08 14:39 [#02542066]
Points: 5179 Status: Lurker | Followup to Cliff Glitchard: #02542063 | Show recordbag

great :)


offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2018-01-08 17:56 [#02542069]
Points: 21128 Status: Regular

my music is so amateur a damaged nematode worm could have
made it, but it has its charm I guess


offline SignedUpToLOL from Zuckuss fanfiction (United Kingdom) on 2018-01-08 21:48 [#02542074]
Points: 2853 Status: Regular

Golly, amateur music, whatever next?

I mean, we're not going to go back to the world of only
physical media, where yes, there was a bit more involved in
getting an album or a, shudder, EP out and distributed. The
Music Press was dying on its arse before the Internet took
off. Back in the day I used to get Melody Maker, NME and
Sounds. And then one by one they folded or, in the case of
NME, became an Indie Smash Hits (but without the humour).
And now they give it away free outside Tube stations. But
what happened?

I was trying to find out why, then I found this article from
the Guardian from Dec' 2000 (Melody Maker pensioned off ) and there's
this quote at the end from jug-eared Radio Disc Jockey Steve

"The closure was a business decision. Melody Maker was
just not selling enough copies to keep it going. If you go
back 10 years, you would scour the Melody Maker for singles
reviews and think 'I'll buy that because it sounds quite
good'. ...

Also, you can get gossip from the internet. Many bands have
their own websites that give you far more information than
the music press. Garbage, Ash and the Offspring all have
regularly updated diaries of what they are doing, so you are
getting that info straight from the horse's mouth."

What a chilling glimpse into the late 90s/early 00s.

Garbage, Ash and The Offspring...


offline Indeksical from Phobiazero Damage Control (United Kingdom) on 2018-01-08 22:14 [#02542077]
Points: 9327 Status: Regular | Followup to SignedUpToLOL: #02542074 | Show recordbag

I have to confess I listened to that first Ash album loads
while I was avoiding my GCSEs


offline SignedUpToLOL from Zuckuss fanfiction (United Kingdom) on 2018-01-08 22:34 [#02542078]
Points: 2853 Status: Regular | Followup to Indeksical: #02542077


Continuing my unsolicited ruminations on the Death of the
Music Press (long before the asshat in the OP startled
himself with the notion of "professional music") I cam
across this article NME and the Death of the Music Press from 2004. And whilst
it's got some good, some meh points, what struck me was this

"... the music press wasn’t simply metropolitan taste
makers telling us how it is. In order to be credible with
their readership, the music weeklies reported on emerging
scenes and gigs in small-town Britain. You felt that your
local venues and record shops were alive with possibilities.
And more often than not, they were.

Thus reading NME or Melody Maker was akin to being part of
an in-the-know club, always the hallmark of a great
publication, and something which music websites today
can’t replicate... The lifeblood of the music press
wasn’t talented Oxbridge graduates alone; it was also
thousands of bored teenagers using pop music as a source of
immediate excitement and long-term escape from

I think this is true. There are so many factors involved in,
let's go back to the original topic, Dance Music, The Scene,
The Underground, The Press. It can be a way of life,
essentially for young people. That doesn't stop old people
liking music, making it,reading up on it and theorising, but
it is about the young.

Instead of any scene, or trend, beyond the big POP STARS or
established genres, there is, thanks to the likes of
Bandcamp, and almost infinite, atomised galaxy of
micro-scenes and individuals, some of whom have their
fanbase at a size that is possibly proportionate to their
appeal (which might well number under 10 people). No one
can like everything, not even everything objectively "good".

I don't know what I am saying. In short, there's no going


offline fleetmouse from Horny for Truth on 2018-01-09 11:27 [#02542126]
Points: 18042 Status: Lurker

I miss being so inspired by a written description of how
music sounded that I ran out and bought it unheard, then to
marvel at how well the writer captured the sound in words.
(I also bought some crap that way, oh well)


offline Fah from Netherlands, The on 2018-01-09 15:03 [#02542130]
Points: 6428 Status: Regular

Reading the article a second time over it's kind of hard to
point out what exactly is "the problem" if there even is
any, and since the article is from 2015; "has it been fixed"
? Or whatever 'it' is.. There is such an incredible amount
of music, types of artists and types of listeners that it's
hard to see where there could ever genuinely be a 'problem'
unless perhaps a singular person's incapability to make up
their own mind somehow puts people out of making a living or
something but has that ever happened? I duno..

Does anyone else recon these kinds of global discussions
about art happen when we start taking art too seriously?


offline mohamed on 2018-01-09 18:28 [#02542131]
Points: 26234 Status: Regular | Show recordbag

haha crying about making a living and not be able to do ONE
dance music track.


offline mohamed on 2018-01-09 18:32 [#02542132]
Points: 26234 Status: Regular | Show recordbag

and not be able to do ONE dance music track.

like the most of us, but we (usually) dont cry and/or want
to make a living about that


offline EpicMegatrax from Greatest Hits on 2018-01-11 08:13 [#02542194]
Points: 9974 Status: Lurker | Followup to fleetmouse: #02542002

i take issue with this artcle. i am a full-time punk


Messageboard index