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Does anyone use linux combined with hardware? What's your software set up? I am having latency issues with a bunch of different distros and software set ups, should I just get one of those special music distros? |
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how are you testing latency? is it so obvious , that your ears alone can hear it or are you doing a type of ping test? how many ms? |
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what sound card are you using on linux? |
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I can hear it to the point that that my hardware sequenced stuff is noticeably ahead of the audio software. I can't lower the latency in the software any further or I get buffering glitches. I'm just using a focusrite saffire usb cars, it's picked up automatically because I'm trying to integrate it in to my live set up. |
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whoops 'it's picked up automatically. I'm just using a small old interface because I'm trying to integrate it in to my live set up.' |
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These are probably obvious to you.. but what the hek.. how about adding latency to the midi with a plugin? or an external module that you route through? (company called midi solutions) or the other idea you may not want to do, but is what i would do, is dual boot windows. or maybe get an RME 9632 from ebay. |
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The problem with adding latency is that I'm playing live and it fuck s everything up because I'm not great. I have windows on the lappy at the moment and am using it, I just don't like the OS but I'll have to suck it up. I tried hackintoshing it but the graphics card has some issues so there's glitches. I think if Windows annoys me too much I will ditch the laptop completely and lean more on the ipad |
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you want your latency as low as possible for live. so id scrap the adding more latency to midi idea. are you using a Saffire 6 USB 2, so the module runs both audio and midi? or are you using two different modules one for audio and one for midi? |
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i replied without seeing your other message. so what i can gather from the thread title was you were having issues with linux but i see you were trying to get away from windows and try something new= linux) i think i understand |
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what os version you using? what probs you having? Ive been using xp for as long as i can remember. only prob is when you go on the internet!! So, what i do is have a separate PC for music making .. ( or dual boot) so i have a fresh install of xp with only the progs i need, no junk, ...nice and clean , no problems. certainly no virus scanning or other junk and it works great. |
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$ lspci -vvv -s 04:06.0 04:06.0 Multimedia audio controller: Creative Labs EMU10k2/CA0100/CA0102/CA10200 [Sound Blaster Audigy Series] (rev 04) Subsystem: Creative Labs SB035x Audigy 2 OEM Control: I/O+ Mem- BusMaster+ SpecCycle- MemWINV- VGASnoop- ParErr- Stepping- SERR- FastB2B- DisINTx- Status: Cap+ 66MHz- UDF- FastB2B+ ParErr- DEVSEL=medium >TAbort- Kernel driver in use: snd_emu10k1 Kernel modules: snd_emu10k1 milkytracker lets me set the latency. it's something like 50ms. i don't notice too hard, but i might start too soon. getting more into just laying stuff down by rhythmically smashing the keyboard as it plays in edit mode... best part of trackers, right? so this is when latency starts to matter in a studio context |
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The heart of the Sound Blaster Live! Value is the EMU10K1 audio processor chip, which is the most powerful integrated music, audio and effects engine available. Every signal is processed at 32 bit, 48kHz using E-mu’s patented 8-point interpolation wave-table synthesis with much more powerful effects processing. Therefore, the result is a cleaner reproduction of the wave-table musical instruments at all degrees of pitch shifting. shit, i have to figure out if i can use all that somehow |
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What software is generating the MIDI? Are the MIDI and audio coming from the same program? See if you can find a delay compensation setting. A low latency kernel would help a bit but things would still be off because with any setup there will still be a processing block size, no matter how small. Are you running the hardware audio back into the computer, or does it go straight into a mixer? In Ableton there's an "external instrument" built-in plugin to address audio returning from hardware, with a hardware latency adjustment. Of course that doesn't help you, but I'm just saying, this is a problem on every platform, and there are various solutions. |
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I tried an Ubuntu derivative, a debian derivative and solus. The laptop came with Windows 10, which just feels clunky and inconsistent although this is probably me not having used windows for like 8 years? If I use the computer (which is really just for recording these days) I do it on my desktop which is a mac but I can't take that out. I think I've got everything set up on the iPad as I want it now anyway :) |
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what are you using on ipad as a master brain control center? |
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99& of the time its driver related in my experience or whatever virtual audio device you have selected stuff like this can be very annoying |
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sorry thread got more replies without me refreshing it. Octatrack is the brain generating clock and also sending MIDI notes plus CC info. It's also generating its own audio Audio from laptop/ipad is fed back in to the octatrack |
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You're right. If I set my buffer sizes the same in OS X on the desktop and use the same soundcard, same software, same setup the latency is different. I have 2 small midi interfaces so will try those out and see if it's a MIDI or audio issue |
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^ am I? oh thanks!, i had this issue for a while on cubase, for me it was just a matter of fiddling around with the settings, but since thats only tangentially related to your issue i wont go into it. I hope you sort it anyway |
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I presume you are as I've tried different kernel versions but have used the default asio (I think) driver for the interface. Now I'll see if there's a different driver about that I can use. |
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you will have to faff about getting a real time kernel n stuff .. major tweaks necessary i think there are distros which are built for doing it out of the box ? (it also lets u use ur cpu properly: i get less sine oscillators out of a 2 core celeron 2.16ghz than i did out of a 1999 ibook... i think) |
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it is worth it though |
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...can i write away to a catalog for that real-time kernel, or what? is it corn? computers and cars match up, in the context of this thread. there's a company called sweetwater sound in glorious texas that will build you a rack-mounted music computer (mac or pc) and it will be totally tuned to shit. the operating system, the (lack of) fan [noise], blah blah. it's tuned for music, though. that same refined machine would generally suck a turd as a web server. same as a track car would suck a turd in a street race anyways, this leads to a simple and important point: clearly defining what you want out of the computer upfront is a lot easier than buying one and fumbling around until it's "good" |
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does windows still have that "pick your poison" approach to audio drivers? like: do i want directsound 3D single duplex or double trouble? the winner, universally, was "ASIO (Full Duplex)" and consequently it's the only option i can remember without turning into walruspeak. do you have it set to ASIO (Full Duplex)? there might be a custom variant on this for your soundcard, this is even better than vanilla ASIfullplex then there's the usual signal chain nonsense: the sapphire talks to the usb, is the usb stuffed full of sixteen things? unplug as much as you can. it's not that i think this is the problem, it just eliminates noise that could potentially obscure the actual culprit does the motherboard have a northbridge worth a shirt or is usb bandwidth slowing you down? unlikely but possible are you using the latest, native drivers for the sapphire? like hyperflake said, if you don't have a proper driver, you'll get some crappy windows generic with the latency of an old man's bowel next, can you test your sapphire card with just the windows tray widgets or something? essentially examine the way the card and the OS talk without your DAW or whatever in the way (and USB stuff unplugged) so you can see if the card and the OS have a laggy relationship. if the card and the OS seem to have zippy latency, examine your DAW config next onion layers innit |
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different context... I learned more from Apple -- like avoiding USB devices when possible. For me, the guilty parties were my Ethernet dongle, memory card reader and external hard drives |
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Windows latency is fine matey! It's the only device attached. To steve, I'll move to a low latency kernel in the linux partition next time I boot it up and have a fiddle. I have a vague memory of doing it once before and it not solving the problem but I'm probably wrong |
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if everything from the sapphire device up through the usb, driver, and OS are alright, the problem is in your DAW. but that's only if you're sure about the first part |
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>> anyways, this leads to a simple and important point: clearly >> defining what you want out of the computer upfront is a lot >> easier than buying one and fumbling around until it's "good" oh god aye, but that effort and learning is not wasted if it helps you in other things that you know you want to do after. which it might not in this case. anyway, that's a very 'upper management' attitude ;) |
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not sure if you got this sorted out, but i was curious and found this for NixOS: might give it a try in the future, haven't tried NixOS since ~v14. it's a lot different from usual distros but once you learn the configuration language it's got some nice features like reproducible configuration and rollbacks, i might try switching from mint completely when 17.3 is no longer supported |
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I've not tried nix but was planning to dig in and sort this problem this weekend so will get it on a USB. Sounds really interesting actually! Cheers Mapp |
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] ] > > anyways, this leads to a simple and important point: ] ] > > clearly defining what you want out of the computer upfront is a ] ] > > lot easier than buying one and fumbling around until it's "good" > > oh god aye, but that effort and learning is not wasted if it > > helps you in other things that you know you want to do after. > > which it might not in this case. anyway, that's a very 'upper management' attitude ;) upper management? no, not quite... but, yes, you have hit on something, here: you can't clearly define what you want unless you have your head around the relevant subsystems. i agree completely: if you're cutting your teeth, just dive in. Inskeletal doesn't sound like a n00b, though -- seems like the music is sorted and it's more a matter of how to get it on the road. in this context, "you might learn something" is a very 'pedantic engineer' attitude :> to be fair, though, i immediately dove into my rant without taking a moment to note it's presumed you're already with clue |
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i have a hell of a lot to say about debugging things. down-to-the-wire IT panics.... years of fixing things from toy helicopters up to server farms.... tracking down cable problems at a plus three on the shulgin scale.... yessir, i know a few things |
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here's something i don't know: can a long USB cable tank up the works? it's not about the raw latency of the eletrical signals zipping back and forth, it's more about usb being one of those protocols with error-correction. you won't get audio artifacts from a dodgy USB cable, but the devices speaking with each other will have repeatedly repeat themselves and this will tank your latency. i figure this is not even worth mentioning re: OP ("are you using short USB cables? if not, use short USB cables") but i am curious exactly what the limits of USB cables are... all i found specifics for was MIDI: for USB, there's lots of conflicting info on the internet -- search results are just people arguing about it on internet forums. lol |
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the toy helicopter has a bit of a story. it was one of those tiny wee ones that charges by plugging into the helicopter remote (which is easily five times the size of the helicopter itself). an ex and i had great fun with it for a week or two before a fiery crash and tears. i took it down to my workshop and spent an hour or three with tape and tweezers and got it flying like new. proudly hand it back to my ex, who promptly flew it into a shelf full of jargon. broken even worse than before. at that point, i grabbed the little bugger and threw it at the wall as hard as i could. exploded it. ex was stunned and upset, obviously. i said something like: it wants to be broken, let it. i get a bit superstitious about these fings. |
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Interestingly at work we use two 30m USB 2 cables connected to powered hubs and they send not only controller signals with no latency but images to USB monitors that are also seemingly latency free (at least not noticeably enough for ableton/logic sets) For midi we use Kenton line drivers to convert to Cat5 and can then send up to a couple of hundred metres providing there's no switches. |
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Should point out that that's 2 computers with a 30m USB each, not 2 30m cables daisy chained. 30m is the max you can go with USB 2 AFAIK, 45 with 1 and like 6m with 3 |
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the word engineers would kool-aid man in and scream up in this thrizz-ed wud b: attenuation. the more wire the signal passes through, the fainter it is. if it's too faint, the receiving end can miss or misinterpret it. from there it's a lot like a network connection -- if a "packet" gets dropped due to attenuation, the answer is to re-transmit. too many dropped "usb packets" and you begin to get audible drop-outs. a few feet of cable past that it's too attenuate-y and stops working entirely. the flip side of this is that, in theory, you should never have latency issues with short, quality USB cables... but every time i've read that answer, it's been some dude on a message board or a small blurb on numark's site and i want a proper answer from a pedantic compulsive nerd like me so i can stop stressing it |
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attenuation is a great word |
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a point of attenuated returns ~ chasing after an irrelevant edge case. my curiosity regularly exceedes my reserves of practicality. someone on one forum said something like, "you could could put one end of the USB in florida and the other in the free city of newark and maybe you'd get 25s delay." i thought: oh! napkin math. let's look up USB on wikipedia, and see if the orders of magntiude are in the ballpark. but, no, it's complexicated: "here are two types of pipe: stream and message. A message pipe is bi-directional and is used for control transfers. Message pipes are typically used for short, simple commands to the device, and a status response, used, for example, by the bus control pipe number 0. A stream pipe is a uni-directional pipe connected to a uni-directional endpoint that transfers data using an isochronous,[39] interrupt, or bulk transfer" so, yes, when a dodgy usb cable is on the edge of being too long, a botched, er, bulk stream could trigger a control transfer and it could up the wagiggers of the bidirectional diophantine afterburner and i love making this shit up far more than i do reading it. finally, we get to: "For low-speed (1.5 Mbit/s) and full-speed (12 Mbit/s) devices the shortest time for a transaction in one direction is 1 ms.[149] High-speed (480 Mbit/s) uses transactions within each micro frame (125 µs)[150] where using 1-byte interrupt packet results in a minimal response time of 940 ns. 4-byte interrupt packet results in 984 ns." you could calculate how much a stereo sample at 44.1 costs you in bandwidth.... but can you get that 940ns latency and the full 480mbit? a lifetime of experience with engineer hazing rituals says no then you get into the real shit: if your bohringer (tm) crusto 900 audio interface has weak USB power, could that generate my edge case of bodged packets even in short cables? it goes on forever |
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isometromorphic diophantium. bidirectional titmosh |
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so did indy fix the thing? i've lost the plot, here |
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something something femtocopters up your japseye |
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more or less. my brain is full of femptocopter flap and so i log onto xltronic and the weasel fire takes ahold and you get some manic screed. then i feel like i've taken a psychological dump and i move on with my so-called venetian snares album |
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Epic have u read 'The Brain of the Firm'? goodun that |
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i just tried to re-read the intro but it was in the voice of Johnny off of Naked |
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