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take a really good look at the stop the war coalition website and tell me what you feel. these guys used to be fringe leftists from unheard of communist revolution parties that later joined up with muslim council of britain to organise the anti war march. we are going to have to look at these dudes a bit. |
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Nice to see you ampi, people were asking for you this week in another thread. I hate war but I'm not interested in reading your link, maybe because I'm tired of all war shit...I've got this feeling I personally can't do anything about it and it's just a waste of freaking time...sorry. |
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hi AMPI how you coin |
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doin |
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Nah, it's mainly just Putin having an inferiority complex and wanting to get the West's attention by flexing his muscles. However Crimea was part of Russia until the 1950s (was transferred to Ukraine during the USSR) so the Russian claim is actually semi-legitimate, and the result of the Crimea vote is totally believable and not the result of any coercion. So the locals do actually want to be Russian, but Putin is using them as an excuse to piss off the West. IDM |
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youre not alone crazone. but careful you don't become a depressed isolationist with no grasp of the world around you. isolation is for right wingers. im doin fine mo ham. nice to see you around |
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rods im talking about stopwar.org stopwar are saying the heavy brutish imperialism of russia is a good thing. but we know russia stands against everything a liberal leftist is supposed to believe in. for example they say gays are child molesters. we've heard that language before havnt we and it's the language of the far right thug. but stopwar is a leftist organisation.... u get what im here saying guys? |
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im here saying that modern leftism may not be so left. infact it might be rightwing. u get? |
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Oh right yeah. Some people seem to think that the US is the root of absolutely all evil, so anyone who is an enemy of the US is apparently a good guy. I know a guy who is/was like that about the Yugoslav wars of Milosevic. They were pointless wars waged by a racist dick head, but my friend inexplicably thought that Milosevic was the good guy because he was also anti-American. It's a load of shit. |
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Hey AMPI I remember my history teacher telling us not to think as right and left as a line as much as joining up at the end in a circle. Hitler & Stalin being the two extremes. Different ideology, but manipulating it to impose their tyrannical will. Just my little bit of naiive input, but to be honest, I just ignore the news to the best of my ability, and enjoy living in my ignorant little bubble. |
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What do we think about the revelations about Turkey planning a false flag attack as a pretext for going to war (officially, rather than just as they are now, covertly) with Syria, and that story getting spun into it being about fucking YouTube and Twitter being banned, as if that was somehow fucking worse? |
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@ listen2melol: im not sure at all on turkey in fact im new at politics stuff. you'd know more than me hun what im saying wouldnt be that new if i was talking about how the far left too easily slip to the far right, or even the worthwhile point that perhaps far right and far left end up being the same thing. what we are seeing today is mainstream liberalism, still retaining the characteristics of the bohemian multicultural lover of freedom, being very cosy with the ultra fascistic right. the left sometimes ignored the atrocities of communism and exaggerated the crimes of the west but they knew a religious fascist when they saw one and would not stand for it. if you were attacked by white supremacist christians the left will be by your side. the left are much more confused about right wing islamists and often make excuses and turn away (which is really bad). but look at the excuses made for white racist corporate christian propaganda russia. i feel that's a very new low. this isnt the same as being in love with the dream of communist russia. the left know that's dead. this is them siding with everything they say they hate about america. |
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i suppose it's hard to define in what way this is new when so many historians would tell you that the left have always made huge mistakes. supporting mao at least looked like you were supporting a leftist visionary. but surely nothing could place putin in a leftist light no matter how you looked at it. he's straight forward old fashioned hard right. i think the old left liberalism couldnt really be friends with people who said they hated america but hated gays and women just as much. it seems like the new left can |
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Is it really "the left"? There are quite a few people who think that way but I don't think it was ever something that the bulk of "the left" believed. Maybe in the UK yo |
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The American Left is not always as different from the European Left as readers may imagine, not least because several of the ugliest features of European leftism are American imports. Lévy finds it highly significant that when the American academics Stephen Walt and John Mearsheimer disinterred conspiracy theories about powerful Jews to explain away the Iraq War, they were not embraced by right-wing European journals, as anti-Semitism was in the twentieth century, but by their left-wing rivals. I speak from experience when I say that among English academics, Walt and Mearsheimer’s notion that the Iraq War was organized by a Jewish cabal is everywhere, and those who hold it think that their regurgitation of the oldest fantasy of the far right is proof positive of their liberalism. Denunciations of “Jewish warmongering” came from Charles Lindbergh and “America Firsters” in the 1930s and 40s, Lévy says. Now we have “a left that makes your head spin–a left that, if words have any meaning at all, is sometimes more right-wing than the right itself.” |
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the russia ukraine thing: i feel the mainstream liberal media, while possibly lending a little too much credence to the story of ukrainian thugs, is basically not on russias side. however stop the war coalition is no small force and no one can say they are not a representative sample of modern leftist thinking. the march against the iraq war, one of the left's proudest moments, was organised by these ppl. also chomsky says the same thing and he certainly is a representative sample. |
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one of the worst examples of false logic i've ever seen since your last one. you're a fucking moron. of you're going to argue dialectics at least fucking understand how they work. having said that i'm not disagreeing with what you've said, but i am strongly against your reasoning, so much so that anyone who reads your shit will probably change sides. |
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would be nice if you told me what was wrong with my reasoning. youre sometimes not very nice so you wont, will you. it's also obvious im badly educated and you probably aren't (ykno cos you get how dialectics work or something). tbh because i know im thick i've been trying to keep my logic out of things. that's why everything i'm saying here is NOT my logic. it is the logic of some of the best left wing (and a few conservative) journalists and scholars around at the moment. they have been saying this stuff for a long time now. |
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can i just say drummon that your comment is almost word for word identical to some comment i found under an article on this subject the other day. 'false logic' and 'it's enough to make me switch sides' is something i've noticed people say when being morons |
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Just ignore him |
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let's all just make loveeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee |
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the munich massacre of 1972 was bad. terrorists captured and killed 11 jewish athletes. they demanded the release of hundreds of prisoners including the anti semitic red army faction (Baader Meinhof) but what does stop the war coalition think? apparently the missing 'facts' is that isreal had done bad things to palestine so these jews sort of deserved it. i hope it's clear to everyone here how wrong it is to say that. |
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[F]our of Mr Miliband’s biggest donors are also key members of Stop the War: the Communication Workers’ Union, whose head of policy, Steve Bell, is Stop the War’s treasurer, Unison, the TSSA union and Unite, whose chief of staff, Andrew Murray, is Stop the War’s deputy president and former chairman. ....at the heart of Stop the War lies a number of much more questionable groups. It turns out that the campaign itself, and several of Mr Miliband’s new allies, are closely associated with bodies which explicitly support the Assad dictatorship and oppose any action whatever against the regime, even after the chemical attack which killed hundreds on August 21. it's hard to track down all these funny groups that comprise StWC. it's also hard to track down where they have pressured government and media. btw keep an eye out for any connection with PRESS TV cos it's an iranian propaganda thing. for example george galloway (key figure in stopwar) is paid by iran to spread propaganda to english speaking countries. i know this all seems crazy, dosnt it. |
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galloway seems to be doing very well atm. you guys seen his kickstater page? |
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no one gives a shit, as evidenced by your last three posts with no response and multiple hours in between |
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press tv and russia today are very aware of how to spread propaganda to western countries. soviet russia in the middle of last century put huge efforts into circulating untruths about israel. i won't open that can of worms just yet but trust me; i'd say well over half the things we have mistakenly believed about israel since it's creation come from russian propaganda peddled by leftists (often unwittingly). |
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I think people do give a shit, but we pretty much to a man agree that these issues will not be resolved on Xltronic, of all places. I think the Left is as loathsome as the Right, and both are morally bankrupt. One need only look at the (not as new as the Mail makes out) story of the National Council for Civil Liberties advocating for the Paedophile Information Exchange on the grounds of their Human Rights. Academically I guess you could form some argument for that. But you'd have to be some kind of fucking prick. |
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interesting cos i was reading about all of that. people don't know about the cultish nature of 70s leftism and how it kept producing and enabling the kind of creeps that advocated the paedophile information exchange. but i must make a distinction. to the naive wide eyed leftists of the 70s you can just about see how they got persuaded into thinking that paedophiles were another sexual underclass oppressed by out of touch elites. it's crazy but you can see how it looked like a leftist cause. considering that in the 70s the left felt that even paedophiles ought to have rights, it's a strange new development that leftism can now so easily ignore executions of 'unfaithful' women in iran or attack iraq trade unions asking for intervention. |
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in defense of the twentieth century left we have to remind ourselves that it won a lot of good fights for liberty and equality. a lot of the most decent characteristics of america and europe are thanks to the left tirelessly pushing for reforms that earlier generations could never have dreamed of. gays, women, and workers had been oppressed for centuries. i honestly still have love for the left. |
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That conservative thing. |
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funny but said by an ipod confiscator |
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looking into stopwar is a little complex. it seems to be run mostly by the SWP (socialist workers party). groups like the SWP have a history of shape shifting into different organisations or fronts eg ANL (anti nazi league). i got lost when i mistakenly began looking into the RCP (revolutionary communist party) who are worth knowing about but they are a different leftist tangent. i'll figure this out eventually |
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A bone field fifty metres by fifty. It’s problematic to describe this as genocide. I gather firewood at eight o’clock in the morning. My son clings to my dress. Men in uniforms with military insignia stop their car and throw him into a fire. Then five of them one after the other. I am paralysed. It’s problematic to describe this as genocide. The solution is not military intervention. We demand the US keep its hands off Sudan. Children start jumping out windows when the Janjaweed come into the school. The police begin firing. Everyone, mainly babies and the elderly, falls down. I am standing on bodies. A military barracks. No bathroom. People stay still, suffering their wounds. People stay still. No bathroom. A military barracks. I am standing on bodies, fall down. Mainly babies and the elderly. Everyone. The police begin firing. When the Janjaweed come into the school, children start jumping out windows. The solution not military intervention. The US keep its hands off Sudan, we demand It’s problematic to describe this as genocide. I am paralysed. One after the other, five of them. They stop their car and throw him into a fire. Men in uniforms with military insignia. My son clings to my dress. At eight o’clock in the morning I gather firewood. It’s problematic to describe this as genocide. A bone field fifty metres by fifty. |
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check this out dudes the swp are bad. peter tatchell is a proper leftist. he's gay + campaigns for palestine + also tried twice to arrest robert mugabe with his bare fucking hands. he dosn't like what StWC has to say about iraq. “The StWC reaffirms its call for an end to the occupation, the return of all British troops in Iraq to this country and recognises once more the legitimacy of the struggle of Iraqis, by whatever means they find necessary, to secure such ends”. Statement issued by the officers of the Stop the war Coalition, signed by Lindsey German, Convenor, and Andrew Murray, Chair of the StWC. “Right now, the STWC supports “the resistance” in Iraq by any means necessary – a tacit endorsement of the suicide bombing, hostage-taking and execution of innocent civilians, including brave, selfless aid workers, election supervisors and ordinary Iraqis on their way to school and work. The STWC justifies this carnage in the name of “national liberation” (sic). Motivated more by hatred of the US and British governments than by love for the Iraqi people, many so-called leftists support a “resistance” that, if victorious, would bring to power Baathists, Islamic fundamentalists and pro-al-Qaeda militants. Is that what the left now stands for? Neo-fascism, so long as it is anti-western?” Peter Tatchell, ‘The Left’s Retreat from Universal Human Rights’, December 18 2004 |
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while actual iraqi leftists were being killed peter tatchell along with loads of unions (labour friends of iraq) wrote this: here are some bits: The torture and murder of Hadi Saleh, International Officer of the Iraqi Federation of Trade Unions on January 4 was part of a wave of attacks on Iraqi trade unionists by the ‘resistance’. Make no mistake about it, the ‘resistance’ are pursuing a campaign of physical eradication of leaders of the Iraqi left and Iraqi democrats. The death of Hadi Saleh is the latest of a number of actual and attempted political assassinations which have been condemned by the international left and labour movement. The exception has been the Stop the War Coalition which has remained effectively silent on Hadi’s brutal murder. |
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The international left and labour movement has spoken with one voice – global and unequivocal – to say that Hadi Saleh was a courageous socialist and trade unionist brutally murdered by the ‘resistance’, enemies of democracy and the working class. He was our comrade, they are our enemies. Letters condemning the killing and supporting the IFTU have poured in. This list is only a partial one. • The Trades Union Congress (TUC) • The International Confederation of Free Trade Unions (ICFTU) • The National Association of Teachers in Further and Higher Education (UK) • The National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers – RMT (UK) • The AFL-CIO • The Canadian Labour Congress • United States Labour Against the War (USLAW) • The International Transport Federation (ITF) • The International Union of Food, Agricultural, Hotel, Restaurant, Catering, Tobacco and Allied Workers' Associations (IUF) • The All Pakistan United Federation of Trade Unions • Confederazione Generale Italiana Del Lavoro (CGIL) • The Federation of Workers Councils and Unions of Iraq (FWCUI) The key exception to this united front of solidarity has been the begrudging utterances from you at the Stop the War (StWC) Coalition. |
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I just watched a documentary called "Dirty war' by Jeremy Scahill , it's worth watching if you're into this kind of thing |
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yeah i've seen it. please take it with a big pinch of salt. scahill is a part of the dishonest antiwar left that im scrutinising here. btw he was at a recent stop the war coalition debate. like noam chomsky he goes very softly on old Milosevic battled regularly to raise U.S. war crimes. Sadly, with Milosevic will likely die the last hope the victims of these crimes in Yugoslavia had of getting their day (if it could even be called that) in court Scahill’s overriding thesis of the Kosovo conflict is that it was the United States that was the guilty party. “Under his rule, the nation of Yugoslavia was destroyed, dismantled, and chopped into ethnically pure para-states,” Scahill wrote—of Clinton, not Milosevic. What really irked Scahill was not the impending mass genocide of ethnic Albanians, but that NATO had acted without a UN Security Council resolution. Kosovo was “Clinton’s Iraq,” Scahill fumed in 2008. “He bombed Yugoslavia for 78 days with no United Nations mandate.” |
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was invited to speak at loads of SWP debates. some of u may believe (even just the tiniest little bit) that jews - sorry- zionism is trying to control the entire world. if you do believe that then ur a cunt and u need to sort that shit out. i had loads of stuff on atzmon but the wiki will do here: In Rewriting History: Holocaust Revisionism Today, a book-length assessment of the Holocaust denial movement published in December 2012 by Hope not Hate, Atzmon is listed among the "Who's who of Holocaust Revisionism": For some time left-wing anti-Zionists defended Atzmon’s views, but since he embraced Holocaust Revisionism, publicised the work of outright Holocaust deniers and came out with other irrefutably antisemitic comments, his support base on the anti-Zionist left has waned. Nevertheless, there are still some left activists and academics who are prepared to defend him in spite of the evidence... |
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In March 2012, a group of leading Palestinian activists issued a statement calling for "the disavowal of Atzmon by fellow Palestinian organizers, as well as Palestine solidarity activists, and allies of the Palestinian people". Describing him as a racist and antisemite, the statement affirmed that "we regard any attempt to link and adopt antisemitic or racist language, even if it is within a self-described anti-imperialist and anti-Zionist politics, as reaffirming and legitimizing Zionism." Signatories to the statement included Ali Abunimah, Naseer Aruri, Omar Barghouti, Nadia Hijab, Joseph Massad and several others. |
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read that shit. even Owen Jones and Jeremy Scahill thinks inviting Agnes to discuss syria is too much to stomach. (Jones and Scahill are honourable enough gents that they refused to attend the debate if Agnes was also invited but they are still cunts for being involved in the kind of political groups that regularly embrace these fucking freaks) |
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last but definitely not least the SWP has basically completely fallen apart this year following the scandal over big cover ups of rape allegations from women within the party. george galloway and even tony ben's perspectives on the assange rape thing might give you the impression that feminism isn't exactly front and center amongst men on the anti war left. the workers revolutionary party of the 70s was also infamous for it's rapist leader gerry healy. trotskyist groups are kinda rapey hey guys. make sure you are liberal friendly honest people. nothing wrong with hating bush but remember to look around you often enough to check you aren't actually standing alongside rapey anti semite conspiracy theorists who apologise for the most right wing dishonest evil mad men on the planet right now |
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ok if u let honest leftism fail and keep chilling with chomsky then welcome the rightwing to your party and see how the choons turn out. ukip dosnt like granular synthesiz btw |
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You really need to chill. I admire Chomsky as a linguist and look forward to seeing that movie he did with Michel Gondry. I bet you're so lost. And it's probably the truth for us all if we dig a bit in history and politics. But jeez you need to calm down. No one cares here. You're message has been loud and clear for a while now and i just don't bother reading you anymore as you will have said something similar here before. You shoving yourself up a deep hole. And blood will come. I'm going to call you TAMPAX now. |
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nobody cares. that is obviously my point lets take what u just said: you don't care about the fate of the iraqi left, you don't care about abused women in heavyweight leftist organisations, you don't care about the anti semites being given credence and acclaim by the same people who had us march through the streets of london against tony blair, and you don't care that chomsky would sooner have you sympathising with putin than ukrainian protesters. are you right wing? don't kid yourself just cos you like a bit of backpacker hip hop. |
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its way more chill being on the honest side of the left btw |
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what do you think about UKIP? |
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they are reactionary and sinister anti liberals. they talk about women being sluts + lenny henry should go back to africa. its 2014. ive got a little bit of sympathy for the working class english whites cos i knew them when they were little and i've seen how they lose out. of course people with few chances and festering grievances are going to be picked up by parties like UKIP. but they can't let themselves be shit about gays women and blacks. its 2014. |
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hey larn i wanted to recommend Rory Stewart. He's anti intervention (but honest about it) and knows a lot about afghanistan. I don't know how much he has discussed drones and shady military operations under obama but he's a good source. i recon if u follow his name around you'll find decent anti war people who'll be discussing things like jsoc. that dirty wars doc probably isnt wrong btw but it smells a bit fishy and i don't like scahill. just thought youd be interested. this is a good debate see if u like the sound of him |
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You do need to chill. Repeated Big texts, italic, links, and bulletpoints all focused on politics in a music message board. Hell no!!! The media feeds us enough of it all. I for one will not be interested in reading about this here... |
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