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haven't seen any discussion re: the Occupy protests on here yet. what do you guys think? it'd be interesting to get more non-american view points. i live in oakland and was there last tuesday when police started firing tear gas into a peaceful crowd. tomorrow the whole city goes on strike in support of the movement. things will either go very well or very poorly. either way, i will have my mask and goggles on hand. |
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I'm puzzled by why people continue to go to government to solve problems that government created in the first place. It's like going to the guy who just stabbed you to fix up your wound. It seems kind of insane to me. And I can't help but think there's a lot of willful ignorance going on. Doesn't the behaviour of the police reflect the fact that they don't give the smallest little fuck about you? |
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Youtube keywords I've been using (usually filtered to recent): alex jones chris hedges anonymous occupy ows And vids in these channels (Note: skip the top bold 'featured' vids, if present, to get to the recent ones): wolf-pac.com = trying to make new amendment to get money out of politics The ravenise00 guy said oakland are some of the worst (they shot scott olson with the gas canister, possibly on purpose). I fear there might be world tyranny soon. Some say the purpose is to have a peaceful protest to gain moral high ground, possibly getting the non-white-shirted cops to join, and be wary of undercover provocateurs trying to steer toward violence as an excuse to clamp down with marshall law. Its hard to tell propaganda from fact now. |
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GET A FUCKING JOB YOU SMELLY HIPPY CUNTS |
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It's easier and more fun to stay at home and look at porn. |
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Vancouver Canada here, our art gallery has become a campground. While I support the movement when it comes to holding the corporations and rich accountable for their own financial mess, I disagree with the libertarian/tea party ideals that seem to have become so popular. The far left as well; there was a lady who had a huge sign about chemtrails and 'stop nuclear power'. Also, communism. WFT. Not a solution. Look at China. As much as I hate to admit it, I agree with the 'mainstream media' regarding the lack of organization. There are a lot of issues that need to be dealt with. Its simpler to deal with one issue at a time. |
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Full disclosure. I am comfortably employed, shower every day and do not have any student loan debts. |
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I think the order in which I'm doing to play Diablo 3 classes is: Witch Doctor Barbarian Wizard Monk Demon Hunter. |
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If youre going to make any difference to the world i want to see you in a decent suit with some respectable shoes and some fucking salt to your character. This decades left wing are not aloud to make changes cos they are assssholes and dont have any bright ideas because of it. To make things better support good changes in current government. But you cant wear mask + goggles while doing this so |
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The reason why a lot of people end up self organising is precisely because governments have failed to deal with or (more often is the case) completely ignored their concerns. In this case, all that's left is do it yourself. Why do you care so much for everyday appearances? Also, you're really easily led (to believe in the dominant image of 'a protester') if you think everyone who supports the occupy movements are people who won't/don't wear a suit, lol. I support the occupy movement and many other left wing movements all over the globe, and I share their victories as if they were my own, that's because I honestly care for my fellow man, that's more than I can say for the sneering cynicism that pervades yours and other people's responses here, there's some cold motherfuckers in the world. |
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"I fear there might be world tyranny soon" Hypothetical: The occupy movement continue to scream for the break-up of corporations and 'too big to fail" banks. Many point at the failing euro and u.s economies when citing need for holistic and drastic changes to solve global problems: "We dont yet have a political solution to the unified nature of finance and culture". But imagine moveon.org or some similar movement successfuly hijack the OWS pushing an agenda what 'feels right' amongst a critical mass of protesters - those that see fundamental change as the only way forward. That solution, least on the states side of things, pushes the need for a managed decline of the U.S. dollar at first. But it also encompasses the need for a world currency in it's place. At the same time previously nationalism-ruling states begin to address globally understood democratic wants around the world. Of course, all of this process has been subverted by the "invisible hand" to only consolidates more power into hands of the existing elite (central banks et al). Though all of this is carefully hidden from the public eye. Over the following decades big oil & electric companies gradualy become absorbed into the Ministry of Energy, pharma and biotech companies absorbed into Ministry of Health and so on... |
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Was going to continue but ran out of oompf. There's a few more crucial steps I've missed ^ |
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ok ill let you have sneery, but the bit about suits cmon. anyway the government probably isnt so evil, its just another government. you can handle that. instead this smash the system attitude is going to end up with one of your nice guys solving all the problems i suppose. look i just think you feel like some of your mates or an energetic dude from some freetheshits organisation would do a better job of running things instead of THE SYSTEM. i just dont. yeah politics has been around for a long time and thank god its finally got some kind of structure we can all be part of. but wmw thinks it isnt baller enough so he wants the whole shit smashed down and rebuilt by youtube users. i mean that sounds fucking silly but i can sort of see it CANT YOU? |
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anyway governments are going to crumble. you dont have to make a fuss. its all going to flop, people have no faith in it. here in uk i think this conservative government is going to make things really sticky and shit and that will be the final straw for most people like us. we will have children and we'll have to tell them - the government dosnt exist, it was all just lies and bullshit baby. dont worry at all and be yourself. i wonder what music they'll be into - probably something really tacky and crap |
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Maybe every small and seemingly trivial influence is important right now up until Dec 12 2012. This culminating effect of globalization and shift in global consciousness is creating a major bifurcation in history that could go several alternate directions. Who knows where it all takes us, and what reality we end up creating for future gens. Perhaps every tiny decision that we make as individuals and collective during this small window of time will amplify and resonate for milleniums from this point onwards...freqy ? |
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I'm part of the Vancouver based zeitgeist movement and I'm elated/surprised that this occupy wallstreet thing has branched to so many cities and countries. While I take most things with a grain of salt, personally I see this movement as nothing more than a headlight on global awareness. Nevermind the outcome, I'm just glad to see people standing up. Yeah, it probably won't even dent the monetary system, but it's created a movement much stronger than the zeitgeist movement, which is laughed at with zero media coverage. At least this one is getting coverage. You look on reddit or 4chan or youtube or messageboards and you see many people who are supporting this. As taxidermist said, I've seen the same thing at the art gallery downtown. I'm not taking part in it cause a lot of the people are really just attention whores or asking too much to nameless corps who aren't even listening. It's just an interesting thing to see. ..it's just an interesting thing to see.. |
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Comments here are a good example of the information chaos going on: Then with recursive conspiracy theories one could claim ATS is COINTELPRO or whatever. Then claim this post is, etc. Eventually you realize that you can't trust your own brain. Obama was grown in a test tube. Some say alex jones is CIA or a russian agent destabilizing usa or genuine. Who the hell knows? Similar uncertainties for anonymous, etc. Search walmart public service announcement at youtube (spy on your neighbors). Or intellistreets. Ron paul said borders could be to prevent people from getting out rather than in. Nationwide EAS on november 9. With mutually assured destruction modern war might be stuxnet and economic. If its possible for a place as big as north korea to be so corrupt, I guess the whole world could eventually be. Lots of hostile information sources everywhere. My guess is something similar to the 'mass search algorithm' of evolution needs to apply to society/politics(voluntaryism and free market?). So multiple experiments could be carried out simultaneously to select the best/most ethical or whatever, rather than putting all eggs in one revolutionary basket. I think the real potential for humanity to be awesome is there but not sure if it can ever get there. einstein quote past line: |
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I know that western governments aren't evil, but they do basically rely upon injustice in order to operate, this is a structural problem and is nothing to do with any single person being 'bad'. Nor do I think that everyone in the occupy movement and other related movements are 'good' people, or that they can solve all our problems. However, maybe there is hope if people do self organise at grass roots level, we can actually start to directly build something together, and if the shit did hit the fan then maybe there'd be some honest accountability and willingness to deal with problems. I don't think anyone in these freetheshits (lol) organisations are honestly thinking of getting their buddies to run things (barring socialist/commie groups and worshippers of julian assange), that wouldn't be very egalitarian. |
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Yeah i know sry dude i dont mean to make you seem narrow like that. I'm just anti this whole thing. These people are going to kill government and i dont think they are going to do it because its the right thing to do. In fact the people i trust least of all is us. people always think if we hit the reset button we'll do it better, but the truth is we'd be starting all over again only to end up exactly the same, only we might not be as lucky as we are now. im talking about structure cos its all we've got left between us and dumb enthusiastic people making whatever changes they like. people have a lot of power now. i dont think we even earnt all this control we are going to have. we are going to be such a pack of cunts |
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Nice to see people part of the zeitgeist movement and the occupy thing, because there are too many people happy to remain ignorant and let the banking cartels shaft us with fists of blood soaked cash |
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i fully support occupy! capitalism suxxx |
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fuck out to bougie assholes |
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iz bigger dan lukz, diz ol ting |
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Hyphiy will sort it out right hedphukker? |
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so occupy vancouver is getting disbanded from the looks of it. someone overdosed/died. and police put out a 'sacred fire' by the natives. not sure what to make of that, i mean you can't just start fires in public (even controlled contained ones). it's hard enough to get one going in your own backyard without a hassle. |
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My take on it: There are a few serious, intelligent people there, looking to bring attention to a legitimate issue that needs to be discussed. This is lost, however, beneath the bleating of idle, non-productive, anti-capitalist angry children, whining about all sorts of problems. Problems that by and large, they are not doing enough about to fix themselves. I had a student loan. I worked for years to pay it off. I could only afford to live in a shit area with a load of junkies living across the road who made our lives miserable. I worked harder to get away sooner. I couldn't find a job near home, so I moved to another country to work. Despite having a degree, I wasn't earning much. So for three years, I spent 25% of my after tax salary and practically all my holiday allowance on qualifications whilst working around a full time job (which I was also putting overtime into, to help pay my tuition fees). For the last 6 months or so of this, the only day I had off was Christmas day. I was regularly (as in, 4 out of 5 week days) getting up at 4am, studying for 4 hours before a full working day, then going to be at about 8.30pm because I was so tired. Kids who say that as they have a degree (usually in something utterly fucking pointless), they shouldn't have to work in McDonalds drive me up the wall. I want to be The Milla Jovovich Blowjob Tester, be paid £500,000 a year and given 100 days leave. Until that position becomes available, I'll do the best job that will have me. I used to work cleaning toilets and picking up litter. I don't think any job is "beneath" anyone: If you need a job, you take what's on offer. Consequently I have little sympathy for those who complain that there isn't any opportunity or that they "have it tough" in their early 20s. |
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Copied. Pasted. |
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This is kind of thing which really gets me. All your preaching is based on a normative foundation. You really think the anti-capitalism movement is made up of people who are mad because they don't have jobs or because they don't want to work at mcdonalds? no, it's not as simple as that. It's more concerned with the principle that one is forced to work, it doesn't matter what kind of job. The anti-capitalist movement want to be free from structural and institutional powers which forces them (and everyone else) to participate in a society that they want nothing to do with. Now, if you're happy to participate in such a society, that is up to you. But everyone should have a choice. Opting out isn't easy. |
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well said |
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yeah, instead of society, people could just do what they wanted and everyone would have different skills, and we could swap those skills with other people for other skills. like some people could make stuff, and some people could cook stuff. and we'd all swap our skills, and everyone would have a different skill. |
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children should be paid to go to school,taught how to grow food and harvest the sun. Then when they leave instead of money they get a house and an allotment and become almost completely self sufficient and eco friendly. then as guy brush says we all just swap skills and make sure everyone has clothes and is able to maintain their gardens. then we create lasers to fend off asteroids. |
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Dyudez- and one dudette who thinks she might be lesbian- the idealistic ultra awesomeness is possible, but the change has first gotta happen in your mIiIiIINdDdd myYyyyYaaaanaNNn-- IN JO MiIiIIiIIiYyYYiIIINNNdddd. Really. Den da awesomeness copies onto da environmentz, and den life so cool, yoz. Cuz energy transfer to da body, den to da surroundingz by meanz of aktionz! So den you do wat you are and create WHO JU WANNA BE, MANG. |
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Long live Liberia! It's a really poignant example of a failed state with no system. b.t.w I live in a van down by the river. |
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"Preaching" would imply that I'm going out, perhaps into a prominent public place and shouting my views at anyone within earshot, irrespective of whether or not they want to hear it or even if my views offend them. You know, a bit like the people in Wallstreet. Instead, I'm responding to someone (hedphukkerr) who specifically asked to hear my views. The problem I have with your stance is that you are making the protests about your particular bugbear or interpretation of "what's wrong" with the current system and in doing so, diluting and discrediting (by association) the real issue. There's no way of saying this tactfully: Your view that people "shouldn't have to work" is utterly unrealistic and only appeals to a tiny, tiny minority of people. Your extreme* views are in that group that are drowning out the (to my mind, worth listening to) demands for a reform of the way banking and finance is run. The possibility that Occupy may result in some degree of banking form is optimistic, but not outside the reals of possibility. The notion that Occupy will cause western society in general to "wake up" and abandon capitalism as an economic model is batshit insane. You say opting out of society isn't easy. It really is easy; go off and live in the wilds without interaction with the rest of society. Living comfortably and a healthy and long life, however, is considerably more difficult in this scenario than when you're a part of society. I know from experience that when you are lying curled up in the fetal position on the side of a mountain covered in snow, fighting off hypothermia, a warm bed in a centrally heated house seems worth working a minimum wage job for. Likewise, when you are bleeding to death, you would give almost anything to the doctors who are saving your life. *relative to the norm. |
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I live in that commune that you see crossing the ravine in the "Music for the jilted Generation" gatefold sleeve. |
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The idea that the protest is 'single issue' is dubious. Large amounts of people involved, many of those who put their time and effort into organising and mobilising these protests are part of the larger anti-capitalist movement, the real is issue is capitalism, and I wouldn't say it was unfair to call the occupy movements generally anti-capitalist. You seems like the 'reals of possibility' are closed, but batshit insane things are happening on a world scale, there are no bounds. No one is going to abandon capitalism, that's why there is pressure, like the occupy movement. Opting out of society isn't easy, people don't want to exist alone like Thoreau did - that would be a step beyond opting out in the sense that I was thinking anyway - that is why people squat, it's a viable alternative, people work together to create an alternative. |
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It's not about opting out of society-- it's about opting out of the shit/areas/people/concepts which you don't believe in. Know yourself, and if you act sincerely, you will eventually end up in a place where you are a harmonious part of a nurturing system; very content/happy. "Modern society" and all its fucking bullshit seems like it has constant pressure on the whole of humanity and Earth or something like that, but then if you go to a country that is simpler, you might realize that all that bullshit was only in the shit country/area you lived in. I've lived in 3 countries in the past year, and I've finally found my home near pyramids. This world once had no borders. If you use your heart, you will find that that is still the case, with regard to ACTUALLY LIVING. |
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While the red army understands that disagreements with the ideology do occur. We are moving forward with assimilation according the program previously defined. The anarchist group will be henceforth be threatened into agreement with said process Individuals previous living in poverty in India and that are now a success story in the silicon valley must return to previous domiciles to cook naan for the party This is all. |
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True anarchists cannot be threatened, because they have no pants and are covered in apple sauce. |
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Open your mind to the fact that some people really want to be stormtrooper. |
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The moment you work together with other individuals, other than perhaps in very small, tightly-knit familial (or very close friend), you are participating in a "society" of sorts. Before you know it, you'll have a settlement of 300 people or so and all that that entails from a sociological POV. As AMPI MAX says, all you will be achieving is a 'reset' of sorts, which would set us back to an age where you'd be required to work (far harder than you are now) in order not to starve and life would be a far more limited and less rich experience. As often happens with protests, you get all sort of people with their own agenda latching onto it (be it anti-nuclear, anti animal-cruelty, etc.) I agree with you the general 'theme' of Occupy is an anti-capitalist one. I do not understand how you fail to see that the numerous, vague (many nonsensical) side-protests detract from the more serious and realistic ones. The folks calling for political intervention to invoke financial reform might welcome the added numbers of the fringe protesters. Indeed, they ostensibly swell their numbers and make it appear as though more people are in favour of their goal than really are. What the fringe's presence does, however, is turn off a huge number of moderates (myself included) who would be open to listening to their ideas for a shake up of the financial world. Instead, we see the lunatics and think, "Delusional bunch of children" and ignore the whole shebang. |
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A society 'of sorts' is potentially different from the society we have now, from the way you type it's as if you can't see the possibility of a different society, you seem to imply that it'd just end up the same as the society we have now, of course this is just part of the normative argument which is used to backup the society we live in today. A 'reset' implies some teleological narrative which humans are travelling along, as if we are forever progressing and if we started again we'd simply be working to get back to where we were before. The world is a dynamic place made up of many connections, even if a true reset was possible, would all the different connections work together in exactly the same way again. I don't think so, things would likely be different, more importantly, given the amount of possibilities, I think there is potential for things to be radically different. |
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one of the main protest points is the sheer greed that has / is involved with bank crap. 'we are all in this together' are we fuck, when large companies pay taxes off-shore and junk like and similar go on. let alone the people that work shitty jobs, and pay most of their wage as rent to some other pricks mortgage. just isn't on. |
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As a communist i despise the occupy movement. If you turn economical problems into morally or psychological ones, you stay on the surface. NO, capitalism wouldn't work if everyone weren't so greedy. And no, you can't blame all the problems on Banks. Exploitation happens everywhere and in every buisness. I also think that a lot of these protestors are anti-semites even if they don't realize it, they use anti-semitic stereotypes. And thats why the nazi party of america supports these protests. And I don't! |
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I don't disagree that a reset society would likely end up in a (to some degree) different state to the one we're in now. I do, however, think that it'd be regressive. I think it's entirely possible (likely even) that we would end up with a worse situation than we have now. Things for most people in the west really are still relatively cushy in the scheme of things. I think a lot of the people who think, "let's try it again, the alternative can't possibly be any worse" have no idea how good that they really have it. The system that we have is imperfect, but it is foolish to think perfection and utterly equitable balance is even possible. We would be wise not to throw away so lightly what mankind has struggled for millenia to achieve. Monoid: That's an interesting POV and not one I've heard before. Knowing your intellectual capacity as I do, I'm sure it's not as simple as an idiot bigot's, "The Jews have all the money, let's take it off them." Do you have some examples of protestors using anti-semitic stereotypes? |
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There are the obvious anti-semites. But if you look at the other people, who suspect a 'conspiracy' of a small group of powerful bankers, you see the same 'structure' as within anti-semitism. Conspiracism has the tendency to lend itself towards anti-semitism, tho some of these protestors never talk about the jews. Here is the theory from a marxist point of view, that explains this phenomenon (sorry it is a bit lenghty): This form of “anticapitalism,” then, is based on a one-sided attack on the abstract. The abstract and concrete are not seen as constituting an antinomy where the real overcoming of the abstract—of the value dimension—involves the historical overcoming of the antinomy itself as well as each of its terms. Instead there is the one-sided attack on abstract reason, abstract law, or, at another level, money and finance capital. In this sense it is antinomically complementary to liberal thought, where the domination of the abstract remains unquestioned and the distinction between positive and critical reason is not made. The “anticapitalist” attack, however, did not remain limited to the attack against abstraction. On the level of the capital fetish, it is not only the concrete side of the antinomy which can be naturalized and biologized. The manifest abstract dimension was also biologized—as the Jews. The fetishized opposition of the concrete material and the abstract, of the “natural” and the “artificial,” became translated as the world-historically significant racial opposition of the Aryans and the Jews. Modern anti-Semitism involves a biologization of capitalism—which itself is only understood in terms of its manifest abstract dimension—as International Jewry. According to this interpretation, the Jews were identified not merely with money, with the sphere of circulation, but with capitalism itself. |
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AIG Libby = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_M._Liddy Citgroup Prince = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Prince Counrt Wide Mozilo = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angelo_Mozilo |
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So what? These people aren't innocent, but under capitalist circumstances they are FORCED to make profits! |
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http://www.wired.com/techbiz/it/magazine/17-03/wp_quant?cur Programmer = rentPage=all |
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I think occupy wall street, as an adbusters inspired event, is fucking brilliant. All the people who speculate on what it is, have very little interest in where it came from, or even realize that it is absolutely serving the purpose for which it was created. Go read about Guy Debord, and the Situationists. Go read Kalle Lasn's simple read, Culture Jam. Then, learn about the last 20 years of adbusters magazine. here is a quote from him, recently: "Q. The movement has been criticized for being leaderless and for having no focus. How do you respond to that? A. A lot of that criticism is sour grapes, or put out by people that don’t understand. The messy, leaderless, demandless movement has launched a national conversation of the likes that we haven’t had in 20 years. That’s as good as it gets! Not every one needs to have a leader with clear demands. That’s the old way of launching revolutions. This revolution is run by the Internet generation, with egalitarian ways of looking at things, and an inclusive process of getting everyone involved. That’s the magic of it." ok then. |
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