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I support the peaceplan that the Arab countries have drawn. Also Palastina needs a decent army not a bunch of terrorists. USA needs to mind it's own buisness 'cause it's clear at which party's side they're on. IMHO |
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Sharon will never agree to these arab peaceplan. They involve giving the Palestinians their land back in change for the Arab countries goodwill for Israel. First af all Sharon's hatred for Arafat is to much for him to give anything to the Palestinians and secondly who needs the Arab Countries when you got the USA in your pocket! Now according to latest news some people in France are starting to attack Jewish churches and people.......so the plot thickens! This is something I find extremely sad because it only adds to tha madness of the situation, lets hope there is not a worldwide reversed holocaust building up. I still think I know how solve these problems and achieve piece.....................Let Sigurros play a live concert in the middle of Ramallah!!!! The place would fill with love and peace and we would see Israeli soldiers and and Hamas "terrorists" shake hand and start laughing :) Then when SvefnGenglar is finished there would be so much love in the air Ariel Sharon would snuggle up to Arafat and kiss him and then they would start making out..............................end of war! :) Addi b has spoken |
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That's beautiful... no band more fitting than Sigur Ros too. It's too bad people don't believe in love anymore=( |
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religion and greed is the cause of probably every war in the history of man fuck religion and nation-state claims to land; it's OUR earth |
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we should welcome diversity in our homelands. why do peoples want to seclude themselves from any outside influence? maybe they are afraid of being so close other ways of life, forcing them to consider the possibility that some changes in their own ways might be necessary? i find it disturbing that change is feared. |
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well, i didn't say the jews never lived there , Israel was once their rightful homeland, but as i said in another thread before, i find it dissgusting that only the jews can use history from 2000 years ago to lay claim to land that is NO LONGER theirs. The Arabs didn't cause the diaspora, they didn't send the jews to exile,, its not their fault. Palastine had a new people that have lived there for 13 centuries,, the jews had no right to come and take this land from them now. And the main point of my argument by the way is NOT that. i said that the PLO has accepted that israel exists and is only demanding the westbank and gaza back. the creation of israel did create a new diaspora, this time of Arabs, i find it ironic that the jews who complain of suffering so much can so easily throw people out of their homes and move in (which literaly and physically happened). |
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I don't care weather Israelis LIKE the territories or not. those territories are illigaly occupied, this is a fact. under international law, Arab land is infact under occupation and invasion. Resistance in this case so obviously of Arab right. and many israelis do infact support the settlers, and the settlers themselves are israelis anyway, so the occupation exists and israel is doing so willingly. |
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and i don't hate israel just for the sake of it. thats a baseless assumption, how can you say that when i wrote so much reasons to explain why i think israel is in the wrong? |
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anyway to sum up. Israel is illigaly occupying land that isn't hers and the only way the suicide bombing (or any other forms of risistance) will stop is if they give this land back without any conditions. thats what they have to do. If USA didn't support israel so much the world would've forced Israel to do so long ago. not complying with so many UN resolutions and then going around and saying " the UN said palastine should be parted etc .." is just plain fucked up. Iraq was bombed because it didn't comply with a UN demand(by clinton a few years ago) If the world was just Israel should've been bombed by USA ......say a good 60 times now! |
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The Israeli Army should get the fuck out of the West Bank and Gaza right now. The situation in the Middle East is directly linked to US imperialism. The US needs its client states and bankrolls the Israeli economy and military to make sure its interests in the Middle East are secured. Not until US imperialism is challenged, along with the Israeli occupation, will people in the Arab world get justice. |
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Wow, jonesy! You're back with a vengeance, nice to see you again, mate. Has it been a good easter holiday (you marxist hypocrite you)? |
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Yep, it has. The Queen Mother died! |
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You horrible man. |
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Justice has been served. Now its time to get rid of the others. |
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Your royal family seems so unlucky to me and besides, do they have any real political significance? Perhaps Blair's death could be celebrated... |
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They have no politcal significance but are rich parasites who do fuck-all for humanity. Plus we get a ridiculous amount of news coverage on royal deaths while real news is sidelined. The media try and create an affinity between us and the royals that makes we want to puke. Fuck 'em, fuck em all. Blair needs shooting too. |
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Ah, I see your point. Well, can't say that you're wrong. Except, isn't it that they actually do a bit of this and that for humanitarian causes. I know that's not going to alter the world situation too much, but should be hailed. |
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They do fuck-all for any cause. Saint Diana started up an anti-landmines campaign while shagging a man whose family was involved in the arms trade. Prince Philip goes around the world offending everyone with his bigotted outbursts. The great royal debate: do we hang them or shoot them? |
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Anyway this was about Israel. Did you know that early Zionists were in correspondence with Hitler and successfully blocked Jewish immigration to the US when Jews were fleeing Nazi Germany? |
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I see... Huh, I suggest you shoot them and then hang'em. And feed them to hyenas afterwards. |
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I've heard about that. But it is really hard to know what are just rumours and what are proven facts when it comes to jews... A complete mystery I am afraid. |
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"When it comes to Jews?" |
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What? Does that sound racist? Didn't sound that way to me... |
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No I didn't think you were being racist. Just wondered what you meant. I'm not a PC freak y'know. |
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Well, Jewish people (now this is an ultimate in PC terminology) have such a long history and such a long history of being persecuted for this or that reason that a lot of self-made and other myths have kicked in. You know, as well as I do about people denying holocaust ever happened and just because me or you "know" it did, doesn't mean that there aren't thousands of those who think so. And so on... |
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Israel=illegal occupation, destruction, ethnic cleansing Palastine= Illegaly occupied, destroyed, ethnicly cleansed |
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Give me two space ship. i put Israeli in the first, and send them to Jupiter. ------------------------------------------------ Thanx the asteroid belt, they wont see each other for years. ------------------------------------------------ I put the palestinians in the other, i send them to Mars. Finnaly, i buy Israel/palestine, and i make a Theme park. |
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> i find it dissgusting that only the jews can > use history from 2000 years ago to lay claim to land that is > NO LONGER theirs. That's not the case. Israel isn't disputing the Palestinians' right to remain in the area. As both peoples have a historical claim to the region, both peoples should find a way to share it. > The Arabs didn't cause the diaspora, they > didn't send the jews to exile,, its not their fault. No, but jews didn't begin populating Palestine in way of punishing the Palestinians. Jews, as well as the majority of states comprising the UN saw a jewish state as a necessity for the survival of the Jewish people. You acknowledge that, but like the majority of palestinians, refuse to care, and then act surprised when the Israelis do everything in their power to protect that existential right. > Palastine had a new people that have lived there for 13 > centuries,, the jews had no right to come and take this land > from them now. Technically, they didn't take it. They were given it by a power much bigger than the arab congolmerate. Obviously there's no hope in pursuing a conflict with the UN, so let's beat on the small guys. Btw, apropo 1948, the UN offered the Palestinians a much much bigger portion of the land. The Palestinians refused to take any part in such a discussion, and the UN ended up giving Israel a larger portion than was originally offered. > and is only demanding the westbank and gaza back. To repeat, the Palestinians were offered the west bank and gaza back during camp david II (73% to begin with, and then gradually everything else while the Palestinians show they can live in peaceful coexistence over a period of 25 years). Arafat refused because he wanted full right of return. If you read my quote of Arafat in the original posting (and there's many other quotes that point to the same fact), you'd know Arafat is openly interested in the elimination of Israel. Full right of return would have achieved just that. See my original posting for m |
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more information about that as well as about the issue of Jerusalem. > i find it ironic that the jews who complain of suffering so much > can so easily throw people out of their homes and move in > (which literaly and physically happened). Again ignoring the facts. Israel only started driving arabs out of their homes in response to arab attacks, starting with the independence war of 1948. We're going in circles here. This is where you'd say any attacks were justified because Israelis had no claim to the land. If you were willing to accept that both people have a claim to the land, then you'd need to acknowledge the attacks *weren't* justified, since the Israelis were always content with a peaceful coexistence. > anyway to sum up. Israel is illigaly occupying land that > isn't hers and the only way the suicide bombing (or any > other forms of risistance) will stop is if they give this > land back without any conditions. thats what they have to > do. Thinking suicide bombings and other terrorist attacks against Israel are going to drive it into submission is about as realistic as believing Israel can eventually kill enough Arabs to stop their resistence. Since you're summing up here, here's a summation of my own: Israel is interested in giving up the west bank and gaza in a gradual process that would ensure its safety. Arafat isn't interested in a solution that means he can no longer work towards eliminating Israel, even for gaza and the west bank, a palestinian state and a divided jerusalem as its capital (all of which were offered by Ehud Barak in camp david II) > If USA didn't support israel so much the world would've > forced Israel to do so long ago. Maybe. But that doesn't necessarily imply a higher Palestinian morality, just as US support doesn't imply higher Israeli morality. Either way, it's probably healthier to deal with reality rather than a hypothesis that excludes US involvement. > Iraq was bombed because it didn't comply with a UN demand(by > cli |
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> clinton a few years ago) If the world was just Israel > should've been bombed by USA ......say a good 60 times now! Horribly flawed analogy. Israel never has and never will pose a threat to the US. Saddam Hussien is a nuclear war waiting to happen. |
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ISRAEL HAS abandoned any pretence of being interested in peace with the Palestinian people. It is using all its force-its US-supplied tanks, weapons and fighter jets-to crush a people's resistance. Israel has inflicted decades of repression, brutality and humiliation on the Palestinian people. It has occupied their land, bulldozed their homes, impoverished their children, and murdered those who dared to resist. Israel has killed over 1,300 Palestinians, almost 300 of them under the age of 18, since the intifada (uprising) began 18 months ago. Last month Israel slaughtered 222 Palestinians in just ten days. Now Israeli prime minister Ariel Sharon has launched a bigger and more brutal assault. He has called up 20,000 more troops to inflict a new round of butchery. Israeli tanks totally sealed off the West Bank town of Ramallah, and its population of 120,000 people, last week. Israel declared the area a "closed military zone" and expelled all journalists. No one knows exactly what is happening there. |
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But we know that every time the Israeli army has smashed its way into Palestinian towns it has murdered civilians and bulldozed people's homes. Last week Israeli troops stormed the compound of Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat. Dozens of tanks and armoured vehicles smashed through the walls of the compound, and then opened fire with rocket shells and machine guns. Arafat was forced to retreat into a windowless basement. This is the compound that British foreign secretary Jack Straw visited just six weeks ago when he met Arafat. Sharon has kept Arafat a prisoner in the compound since December last year. Siege Sharon has repeatedly said he wished he had killed Arafat during Israel's siege of Beirut in Lebanon in 1982. Observer journalist Peter Beaumont, who was in Ramallah last week, described how the Israelis executed five Palestinians by shots in the head at close range. Troops then arrested five ambulance drivers, handcuffed and blindfolded them, and then used the ambulances as a human shields in their military convoy. The responsibility for Israel's new assault lies not only with Sharon, but also with the US and British governments which supply the money, the weapons and the support. |
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C'mon nir, how can you defend Israel. There is no evidence that Iraq has these nuclear and biological weapons. The US on the other hand has plenty and is willing to use them. Who is the only country to have ever dropped atomic bombs? You're right that Israel is no threat to the US. Its a client state of the US and is bankrolled by the US. They need states in the Middle East to do their dirty work. |
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Israel<--- WAR --->Palestine |
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I can't imagine a more one-sided description of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, in the period beginning with Sharon's election as prime-minister and otherwise. Counting Palestinian casualties is extremely useful propaganda when you fail to mention all actions taken by Sharon were prompted by terrorist attacks, usually suicide bombings targetted at civilians. To be blunt, the Palestinians started the killings, and they never really stopped. Since September 2000, there has been close to one terrorist attack per day, somtimes more than once a day. Just a few weeks ago Colin Powell asked Arafat to take part in a seven day cease fire, to which Arafat explicitly agreed. (his exact words were "I will obey"), and then, nada. The Israelis refrained from all violence up until a terrorist attack that killed 22 (the death count is at 27 now) Israelis in a hotel and wounded over a hundred. That and about four other suicide bombings prompted Sharon's attack of Arafat's household. The previous siege you're referring to was ultimately the result of the murder of an Israeli cabinet member. Arafat said he would work to capture the assassins, but following additional terrorist violence, and after Israel obtained intelligence information that the assassins had contact with Arafat, that siege took place. It's now known that the assassins are currently living in Arafat's compound with him. As for the Peter Beumont reference, not entirely accurate. First, the dead people in question opened fire at the group of Israeli soldiers and threw a grenade at them. The soldiers did go in and five people ended up dead. There were no actual witnesses to any execution, but even allowing for the possibility that these were indeed executions (as the wounds to the head and neck suggest), which would make this a war crime, this was hardly unprovoked. But hey, it's not like the Palestinians are short on war crimes, counting suicide bombings first and foremost. As for Iraq, I may not know enough to make a good argument here. I know main |
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mainly about stuff I heard from the media. I understand Saddam is some sort of a sadistic psychopath, and I understand he's been working in the last few decades to build an arsenal of nuclear weaponry, but whether or not Iraq is actually a threat to the US is for someone who knows more than me to claim. To answer your last question, I can defend Israel because I know enough about the situation to realize it's more than a parable of the fight between good and evil, and I know any fair, enlightened discussion about the accountability of Israel has to recognize that this 50 year old chain of violent action and reaction was started and periodically re-started by Palestinians. True, the stakes had grown with time, but you can't ignore the fact it all started with an attack on a people that were interested in nothing more than peaceful coexistence. Forget the blame game though, Any real solution to the Palestinian-Israeli situation has to stop obsessing over the particulars of events in the last five decades and find a way to work towards that original vision. It would be so bloody easy too. Their own state, the financial support necessary to make it work, a division of Jerusalem -- all that stands between that and the Palestinians is a period of peace. Damnit, if they were a little more patient and a little less angry, and were as willing as Israel to stop the killings for as long as it takes to make a solution work, all we'd be looking at right now would be an Israeli state side by side with a Palestinian state going through its first struggles to become self-sufficient, with real prospects for social and technological growth rather than a people looking to martyr their youngest on the front lines. |
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The foundation of Israel as a state was based on the murder of Palestinians and the stealing of their land. What about the massacres in the Shatilla refugee camp? Sharon himself is responsible for the murder of 2000 Palestinians at a refugee camp in 1982. The state of Israel is not interested in "peaceful co-existence" as you put it. Since when did the expulsion of a people from their land, demolishing towns and villages with bulldozers and tanks, the shooting of Palestinian children constitute peaceful coexistence? |
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slow down, boys, this is supposed to be a cold, academic debate. let's not see any bad blood rise. |
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Fuck cold academic debates. These are people's lives we are talking about here. |
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yes, yes, but so what. We're sitting in our offices and idling the day away. Nothing we say is likely to change anything. So, I don't want to see anyone insulted or hurt. (except by my avatar) |
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I haven't seen any insults thrown around dude. |
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oh, you know what I mean. |
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What the hell is that picture? |
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jonesy: check out your mail and see for yourself |
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< Israel isn't disputing the Palestinians' right to remain in the area. > oh thank you so much, NOW GIVE IT BACK! since when could anyone who's ancestors left something 2000 years ago say that they have a claim for it?! this land has been re-populated and has new owners.... |
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i acknowledge what? power to protect that existential right. > you are the ones who act surprised when you see palestinians resisting the occupation...ok fine, jews lived there sometime 20 million years ago, but the Arabs 50 years ago found their HOMES and their RIGHTFUL land bieng OVERTAKEN by others,,,,, now really who's rights have been breached? |
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Salma, jews have lived in Israel at all times in the last 3,000 years. It's been understandably a very small number of them since the the romans did their best to get them out of there 2,000 years ago. But there has always been a jewish community in Palestine. |
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Palestinians refused to take any part in such a discussion, > well, lets put it to the test: question to anyone here who is not palestinian or Israeli: Would you consider giving up part of your country no matter how small or big because the UN reckons you should? me, i wouldn't give an inch up, and if my country was occupied i would happily take up arms and fight for it |
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>The foundation of Israel as a >state was based on the murder >of Palestinians and the stealing >of their land. I'm really doing my best to address specific statements made against Israel here to maintain some sort of continuity. Saying the foundation of Israel was based on the murder of Palestinians and the stealing of their land ignores the existence of jews in the land for the last 3,000, as well as the fact it was Palestinians who started the murders, three hours into the existence of Israel, ending in the murder of 1% of the jewish population in Israel. Pushing Palestinians out of their homes was an a attempt to provide a long-term solution to arab attacks, to create a buffer zone to better allow Israel to defend itself. The portions of land that were occupied through war were later offered to different arab states, none of whom were interested in taking it since it involved the responsibility of taking care of the Palestinians. >What about the massacres in the >Shatilla refugee camp? This is actually a very interesting story. After driving the PLO from Beirut as part of Israel's invasion to Lebanon (which was in itself a misguided response to the assassination attempt of an Israeli diplomat, arranged by Abu Nidal, an enemy of the PLO. The PLO did however regularly bomb northern Israeli settlements from Lebanon), a new Lebanese president was elected, a christian of the name Bashir Gemayel. Bashir announced his intention to sign a peace treaty between Israel and Lebanon, but was assassinated by pro-syrian terrorists days before the inauguration. The forces led by Bashir, known as the "Phalangist" forces, asked Israel to be allowed into Sabra and Shatilla, a palestinian refugee camp. Israel irresponsibly allowed them access, meaning for them to disarm the remaining PLO terrorists there. In their rage however, the Phalangists murdered everyone in the camp, among which were actually only a small number of terrorists, but many women and children. This invoked much rage among Israeli civilia |
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civilians for the negligent actions of the IDF that led to the massacre, and in 1982, no less than 400,000 Israelis gathered to demand an investigation of the events. The court found the IDF officials involved guilty, they were forced to resign, and Ariel Sharon, minister of defense at that time, was forced to relinquish his position as well. >The state of Israel is not >interested in "peaceful >co-existence" as you put it Yes, it is. Refer to the propositions made to the Palestinians during Camp David II. >Since when did the expulsion of >a people from their land, demolishing >towns and villages with bulldozers >and tanks, the shooting of > Palestinian children constitute >peaceful coexistence? This is akin to having someone slap you a good one and then complain you're not interested in being friends when you punch them back. Driving people out of their land, demolishing towns and villages has been mainly a way for Israel to respond to terrorist attacks (I can say this till blood comes out of my nose), and minimize the Palestinians' offensive potential in strategically sensitive places. Which wouldn't be necessary if the Palestinians weren't making themselves a constant threat to Israel's safety. And a child with a gun or a group of children hailing rocks at you doesn't really help to bring out the age difference. I'm not sure, but I think I know why we're going in circles like this. Is it that I'm working out of the assumption Jews have a right to share the land with Palestinians whereas you're working out of the assumption they never had, never will? I can see how I'd hold your opinions if I did as well. If that's the case, we can agree to disagree, and leave it at that. |
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