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 (nobody)...and 136 guests Last 5 registered Oplandisks nothingstar N_loop yipe foxtrotromeo Browse members... |
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Members 8025Messages 2613457 Today 3 Topics 127500 |
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ummmmm, well thats nice to know, these can say that they are palestinians..... and also since when can countries be formed in order to house a single race of people or a single religon??? basically anyone who is jewish can just go to israel and be israeli.... |
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wanted full right of return> the right of return is exactly what you called it: the RIGHT of return. it is there, it exists, it the palestinians right to return to their homes. this is according to the rules of the UN, the rules of basic human morality and basic human common sense. Arafat CAN'T and SHOULDN'T give that up. and as i said before, the palestinians have suffered so much and already given up so much, they are simply imho not the ones obliged to compromise... |
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Salma, that's sort of a trick question, isn't it? One might ask if that country truly did exclusively belong to one group of people, when both groups have lived there for so long. |
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with the independence war of 1948. > well u admit Israel drove Arabs out of THEIR homes, thats nice, now think about that statement and give back THEIR homes. also , its not called the war of independence , you weren't occupied to be become independant. its called the War of not giving back the land we just stole. and you are the one IGNORING THE FACTS. the facts that Israel is an occupier and the Arabs are the Occupied! Israel is the oppressor and the arabs are the oppressed |
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no both groups haven't lived there, Israelis only started immigrating there in recent times, having a jewish community there doesn't give all these immigrants the right to claim this land |
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well, the thing was, Arafat didn't ask to return those refugees to the Palestinian state that would exist if they had agreed. He was asking to put those people into Israel. To reiterate, that would have made Israel a second Palestinian state through its democracy. Which brings us to the root of our disagreement. You say that's fine because Israel has no right to be there anyway, I say it's inconceivable for the exact opposite. I don't really know if there's much point in arguing. |
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why not? how is jews being there in the last 3000 years different from palestinians being there in the last 1300? |
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....This is where you'd say any attacks were justified because Israelis had no claim to the land.> they didn't, for the above reasons ......If you were willing to accept that both people have a claim to the land, then you'd need to acknowledge the attacks *weren't* justified> offcourse they were justified! the Arabs were watching 1300 years of their history disappear, and their land was bieng lost, did you want them to just sit there and smile? .....since the Israelis were always content with a peaceful coexistence. > you have a great sense of humour...and i'd like to refer back to the points of Jewish terrorist attacks before 1948 and the quote from Israels first leader |
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...why not? how is jews being there in the last 3000 years different from palestinians being there in the last 1300?> NO those jews can stay in this land but NOT the millions more who immigrated there unrightfully, they didn't live there for 3000 years! |
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....Thinking suicide bombings and other terrorist attacks against Israel are going to drive it into submission is about as realistic as believing Israel can eventually kill enough Arabs to stop their resistence. > thats true, i agree with you for once .......i don't think the suicide bombings will solve the problem BUT the suicide bombing is still nothing compared to what israel has done |
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..Saddam Hussien is a nuclear war waiting to happen. > Israel has nuclear weapons, and since israel is obviously not embarassed to use excessive force, i worry that in the future, if israel one day finds itself losing a war, it will resort to murdering millions, just like its great friend the US likes to do. |
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jonesy..... u rock! |
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well to sum up once again......... i worry that a military solution that doesn't involve the complete destruction of Cairo and other cities is non-existant, ..... so negotiation is the method that should be used,,, but with the arrogance od israel and its reluctance to accept that it commited oppressive criminal acts and its refusal to componsate those who suffered and return their full rights, negotiation seems ineffective too... Sharon that arrogant war criminal, made a comment when he first came to office about bombing the High Dam,,, now who's looking for trouble when you make comments like that, insulting the few Arabs you are at peace with!? |
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Few would argue against people settling in Israel, whatever religion. However, we're talking about the creation of a state; a state which forcibly removed the Palestinians through force i.e murder and destruction of Palestinian homes. This is the difference. Nir: I don't think you're willing to see the Israeli state for what it is. |
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Yet again, we're going back to the root of our disagreement. I say forcibly being driven out of their land 2,000 years ago gives them the moral right to attempt to return there, you say it doesn't. Predicable on my part since I'm jewish, and predictable on your part since you're arab. Maybe the only real solution is a war. |
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wait a second here: it is that the jewish people were given a new Country by slicing chunks of other countries, nir |
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the main point of my argument is not that jews didn't have the right to create a state in the first place,,, but the effect of creating that state. |
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but offcourse, the jews actually didn't have that right, since the current owners of the land were living there,,,, some people might say thats not important israel is there accept it, well i accept it BUT those people must understand still that israel is there unrightfully imho.... people especially in the west must be informed more of the Arab views of this,,, all Americans hear is the israeli side: the oppressive occupying side |
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I'm Welsh, not Arabic. So its ok that a group of people decide to invade land, killing the inhabitants as they go? Ring any bells? |
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That message was addressed to Salma. I was working out of the assumption that his views were representative of the general arab consensus. And on the off-chance the original message was lost in my previous postings because of their length, I'll try to keep it short this time: They didn't invade the land, they waited nicely until the largest conglomerate of nations in the world gave them a small part of it, which they saw as morally justifiable on account of their history and the holocaust just as the Arabs saw it morally justifiable doing their best to stop them, and they didn't go about killing inhabitants while at it, they were attacked. If you take anything with you to the next post, take this: they were attacked. As in killed. As in murdered by the thousand. |
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So because of the Holocaust Zionists can do whatever the fuck they want. Nice logic. By the way early Zionists were in correspondence with Hitler and blocked many Jews from migrating to the US because it threatened their interests of an independent Jewish nation state. Check your history dude. |
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what a reposte, jonesy |
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No, they didn't do whatever they want. Again, they waited nicely until the largest conglomerate of nations in the world gave them a small part of it, which they saw as morally justifiable on account of their history and the holocaust just as the Arabs saw it morally justifiable doing their best to stop them. I'm Israeli and it's easy for me to see how morally complex and ambiguous this situation is. How come you're having so many difficulties? As for the hitler story, I can't find any historical references to this. When did this happen? Any place on the net I can read about it? |
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i said before never mention the Holocaust in your argument! it has nothing to do with the Arabs... ..they waited nicely until the largest conglomerate of nations in the world gave them a small part of it> waited nicely my ass! rememba terrorist attacks by jews b4 1948? the creation of israel can be described as giving in to terrorsim in itself! bieng the largest conglomerate of nations doesn't mean you can take parts of individual nations and hand them over to people...!!!!!!!!! |
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"Waited nicely until the largest conglomerate of nations gave them a small part of it" What right of the most powerful nations in the world got to impose anything on anyone. The problem is you see nation states such as the US as legitimate. My sources are a pamplet on the history of Zionism and Israel that is now out of print. I think Noam Chomsky has written some stuff from the view I'm taking (the truth) so look for him on the Web. There's loads on Chomsky. |
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....No, they didn't do whatever they want> i'm pretty sure israel has been doing what ever it wanted for decades,,,,, |
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i'm going to sleep now,,,,,,bye |
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cheers, sal |
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No, don't go. It was two against one comrade. |
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im here to watch your back, jonesy |
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Salma, I wasn't mentioning the holocaust in relation to the arabs. I mentioned it to explain part of the reason the jews saw it morally justifiable to apply to the UN. If you're not willing to look into what motivated them to do so, how can I be expected to look into what motivated the Palestinians to wage war? I'm not arguing either side holds a higher moral ground, but it's important to understand and sublimate the motives of both sides before you pass judgement. jonesy, not sure what that means. But the US was only one out of 56 members. Even if the US hadn't voted, there would be 32 votes for the state of Israel against 13, well over the two thirds necessary for a vote to pass. And except for Cuba and Greece, all votes against Israel came from Muslim and Asian nations. All other european nations either voted for Israel, or abstained. You ask, what right of the most powerful nations in the world got to impose anything on anyone. I'm assuming you're asking what moral right they had in the issue. I'd hazard guessing many of the voting nations felt it was morally justifiable to give a small part of an area that was in control of the british at the time, and was only populated to a fraction of what the land could take if it could help avoid an atrocity of such magnitude as the holocaust. I'll do my best to track down that Hitler story. I'll admit I'm a little surprised not to see any mention of it in chronicles of jewish history that are otherwise very happy to point out Israel's wrongs (see the Sabra&Shatilla account). Maybe Chomsky has something for me in this regard. |
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is it a me against you sort of thing? I actually learned a ton from the research I did for this discussion. I'm not trying to "fight" any of you. I actually learned a lot about the opposing view of things. |
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Nah man, it ain't a me vs you thing. I take this as a chance to discuss a really important issue. No bad feelings mate. |
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jonesy just really hates post-structuralist reasoning, that's when he gets all flamed up. Otherwise he's pure vanilla |
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yet this [post-structuralism] is essentially what it boils down to ... :) still - i like vanilla. |
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I like vanilla and chocolate and almonds |
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Post structuralism - rwoarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr |
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so hey, on the off-chance any san-franciscans will read this after 100+ posts of political bore, who's going to to see plaid on the 10th? |
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mmm.. i like nuts, almonds, cashew ain't bad 'tall, infact, 4 brazillian nuts contain the recommended daily intake of selenium, not much of a chocolate fan though .. hey jonesy (while i'm not exactly a scholar on post-structuralism) surely you have to see it for what it is. i mean .. yeah - its futile to some extent i guess [hehe] .. but to me there are some fundamental elements in it [basically the non-absolute assumption] that seem to permeate so many things around us?? [its quite late so am fumbling for words a bit] i don't know ... it gets to the point where any assertion one makes undermines itself - ? |
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I'd like to contribute to this debate, but I'll be leaving in a couple of minutes... |
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Have a good weekend you post-modernist sod |
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relativism in a normative sense ?! ^ seems to face a self referential inconsistency to me .. mmhhh.. going a little off topic here. |
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see, ya, jonesy, and all others |
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Someone just sent me this. I guess most of you can't speak Spanish but the pictures say enough. http://sociologia.usal.es/mfe/images/Fotos%20asesinatos%20d e%20palestinos.Castellano.htm |
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Fucking shit mate, I was surfing for some fine porn and you had to post us THIS. I'm not into snuff, thought you knew... |
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i loved this topic because i made so much sense.. jonsey ur link didn't work..... |
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Salma, you sexy Latin bitch, the link works. Make sure you get both parts... for some reason if a link is on more than one line, and you cut and paste, you won't get all of it. |
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Salma, you have to cut and paste it in two turns: the first row first and then the second. |
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Ehh, ophecks got there before me... Power to you ophecks |
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thnx it works now....nice to see Israel is bieng her unique self as usual... |
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