 |
|
You are not logged in! F.A.Q Log in Register |
 |
|
 |
 Now online (3)Hyperflake belb recycle ...and 312 guests Last 5 registered Oplandisks nothingstar N_loop yipe foxtrotromeo Browse members... |
 |
Members 8025Messages 2614353 Today 74 Topics 127559 |
|
|||||||||
| |||||||||
|
|
*ahem* for a very interesting take on the piracy issue that i doubt any of you who keep it real (honest) will disagree with, go to , and once inside click Fast Forward and then Shadows.Digest to see dj shadow's recent entry essay. very interesting stuff. touches not only on how piracy is really fucking over the small-time artists all of us here listen to (and download), but his last album, tour, and being on a major label. discuss here.. |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
| |||||||||
|
|
*nods in agreement* i have 2-3 burned cdr's........outta a few hundred. burned cd's are just NOT the same as the REAL mcCOY, and so many of the artists DESERVE and need the money to keep going. i will continue to do my part to support them! =0) *piracy sucks* |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
| |||||||||
|
|
I agree with his bootleg scum theory, but I think that mp3 downloading has helped him a great deal. and he is being greedy. |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
| |||||||||
|
|
How's that? Care to provide any examples? |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
| |||||||||
|
|
*my friend downloads a dj shadow song "wow, this is good" a week later he buys the album *I download an alphawezen song or two "holy crap, this is awesome" I order it in, get it about a month later *I download a console track "this is pretty good,. I might buy it" its been ordered, I'm still waiting *I download a ttc song "I'm glad I didn't spend my money on that" *promtply deletes from hard drive |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
| |||||||||
|
|
i mean how can anyone read what shadow wrote about how it takes away from the time they can spend creating (or existing as a SIGNED recording artist) and still say that? i think it's the consumer who is being greedy (and jaded).. |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
| |||||||||
|
|
I also think that piracy is a very bad thing. You shouldnt get something for nothing, especially when its work that someone has really worked hard on, artists should be rewarded if people are interested in their work. Its like a double edged sword though, I am lucky enough to live by a record store that carries loads of albums, more then I could ever want... some people are not that lucky and live in places where they hardly see a afx release. I dont think that pirating music is helping art grow. Especially for artists who are allready "underground". Mike P. said some really good things about this a couple month's ago on the µ board. He basically said that with this kind of music "IDM",braindance, glitch, whatever independant electronic label music..., you have people who are allready handy with technology most of the time, and pirating a lot of stuff..... which hurts sales, warp, rephlex, and µ he said all had lower sales after 1999 ever since napster, now weather that has to do with the pirating technology now, or weather the audiance for electronic music has vanished, he didnt really say, but he said that technology probubly has a big part in why sales are low. Most all of the mp3's I have on my computer except for rare pressings, or pressings that are out of print, I have actual copies of. I feel bad stealing music. Because weather you like it or not, piracy IS stealing. No different from going into a record store and yanking a record and not paying for it. Stealing is stealing. |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
| |||||||||
|
|
some of these artists are NOT millionaires/greedy.........think BoC, Godspeed, etc.......i mean people like their music and burn copies of entire albums and NEVER buy them. these people are not living the GOOD life there are very few millionaires in the IDM, ambient field, etc i don't see dj shadow full of gold chains and sporting ice.......it's a false image |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
| |||||||||
|
|
Usually when you meet a somewhat unknown artist, they are very humble and soft spoken, and when people are creating art, I think money is the last thing going on in their mind. Its about expression and creativity, art isnt about money, and it isnt suppost to b, but if you get enjoyment from an artists work, you should support it. I feel that way anyway. Taking a song and having a sample of what the album is going to be like is fine, its the people who download full albums and never buy it who are messings things up. My opinion of it anyway |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
| |||||||||
|
|
yeah, album leechers are fuckheads |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
| |||||||||
|
|
People complain how this label, that label, this genre, that artist, they ain't selling what they used to. Well guess what, there's just too many artists. There's a glut of product and the consumer has gotten eclectic and picky. By the time you've put out your second or third album the audience you were building has gotten distracted by hippy ska or surf klezmer or split penis industrial ragtime. If you want to make a living as a musician, start shoveling other musicians into the crematoriums. We can't all be musicians; some ov us have to be charcoal briquettes. "There will always be failure. There will always be music." - Jim Goad |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
| |||||||||
|
|
"split penis industrial ragtime"!!!!!! hahaha! YES! Too much supply not enough demand, very true fleetmouse |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
| |||||||||
|
|
Doesn't help the major labels charge nearly $20 retail a CD these days, either... :\ |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
| |||||||||
|
|
Thats when pressing fee's come in though, pressing plants are a big part of that problem I think, and label managment and artists have to get profit somehow. Its expensive to press albums, and pressing plant's fee's dont make it any easier. Its especially hard if your running an independant label with very tight and limited revenue. Thats the buiness to get into... get a pressing factory, that and buy hydrogen stock... and youll make millinos, haha w00t! |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
| |||||||||
|
|
millinos = millions ack! wooosle woozie weee! |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
| |||||||||
|
|
There's no doubt that mp3 'piracy' is stealing, that's not in question. There is also no doubt that it's hurting the artists, especially the smaller ones. However, what I do dispute is that it's hurting the major labels. (I'm not talking about small labels like Warp, etc, despite Warp being probably the largest and most successfull 'independent' label - I mean the biguns like EMI, Warner, etc). I have rather a lot of mp3s, but I have the originals of at leat 80% of them, including plenty of rareities. I *do* buy records (though lately money is short and there mp3 comes into its own to keep my love of music alive when I'm financially going down the swannie) and what I buy is based on hearing mp3s first. People will continue to download mp3s while the cost of buying an album is prohibitively expensive. Labels putting up the costs of records to cover the shortfall caused by the impact of mp3 on sales is never going to work. It will have the opposite effect. Copy-protecting CDs will never work either cos people will always find a way around it, and increase the determination of people to never "give in to the corporate cocksuckers" The only way to stop the so-called piracy of mp3s is to make music cheap enough for anyone to buy easily. I'd buy many more albums if they cost £8. Or even £10, but no way am I spending £20 unless it's the most amazing music of all time, I just can't afford it. Labels should be looking into lowering the costs of manufacturing, marketing and PR, distribution, etc, not wasting money on 'anti-piracy' schemes. It's probable that at each stage of the process of getting music from the artist's talent to your grubby hands there is someone making more money than is respectible. The smaller labels mostly do charge a reasonable figure, within the constraints of the production/manufacturing process, and so that's what I buy, but there's definitely room for a reduction. |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
| |||||||||
|
|
I would gladly pay a musician 3 or 4 dollars for an "album" of high quality Ogg Vorbis files or Lame VBR MP3s. That's much much more than they'd net per unit for selling me a CD through a label, and much cheaper than it would cost me too. Maybe make it 5 bucks to pay down the hosting and bandwidth. Eventually, the sale of music as a physical item is going to go the way of the dodo. Let's face it. So instead of charging for a little plastic and foil disk, charge for the convenience of getting all the hi-fi tracks in one folder with nice hi-res artwork, liner notes and other perks. The majors are drooling at the thought of doing something similar to this only with low quality files, DRM up the wazoo and some sort of Orwellian watch over your shoulder pay per listen scheme. *shudder* The artists better beat them to it with something more consumer friendly! |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
| |||||||||
|
|
I am not really opposed to the idea of "free music" in principle. The reason I don't like MP3s though is that they're free music for us here who are fortuanate enough to come from backgrounds where we can afford computers and modems and the internet and so can surely afford to support smaller artisits/labels. Free music should be available but for people who can't even afford to buy a CD. |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
| |||||||||
|
|
maybe soulseek and other download programs could help, by linking to record labels, or sites where you can actually buy the albums/releases that you download.....? i dont like the idea of buying mp3s (or whatever audio file they're trying to sell) online, i like buying the cds with REAL cd labels and all the artwork. |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
| |||||||||
|
|
Mmm, bunny ears *sneeks behind you* I like to have the original CD or Vinyl or both. I know things are going to change tho. I only download as a last option. |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
| |||||||||
|
|
I know many people like something tangible- they will never buy something that they can't touch like an MP3 whilst there are CDs/vinyl around. There's also the issue of audio quality. Once net speeds get around the GBs/s speed of cable tv, I expect you will pay a subscription fee, much like for cable tv and will be able to listen to whatever you like whenever (money direct to artists syndicate, music divided among artists based on no. of DLes etc.) . That system will be even worse as artists will have no choice but to join up, regardless of how small their cut is... |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
| |||||||||
|
|
Shitting-Christ! When will these artists take their heads out of their arses and get a reality check? Artists have been exploited in the form they are now since rock n' roll. Back then EVERY fucker was ripped off by management and record companies. But the other people who have always been screwed are ordinary working people who have to scrimp and save to buy records. These artists are pointing the finger at the wrong people. If you want to stop being exploited and having to deal with corporate scum, get organised and do something about it. Set up your own networks of distribution. But whatever you do, don't bitch to me. I get a shit wage and STILL throw loads of cash your way. |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
| |||||||||
|
|
"I get a shit wage and STILL throw loads of cash your way." I hear that. :/ Same for me. |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
| |||||||||
|
|
Do you hear the kids who make our Gap and Nike clothes in south east Asia bitch about us buying the clothes they get paid virtually nothing to make? |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
| |||||||||
|
|
people DO pay for intangibles. Cable for instance. Movie, concert and theatre tickets. I bought a year subscription to login to Salon premium because I love their political coverage. And quality is not a problem... done properly, .OGG and .MP3 are indistinguishable from a CD to the naked ears. I mean maybe you'd notice a difference on an oscilloscope. Ceri, you're right about bandwidth. In ten years or less storage and bandwidth will be at such a capacity that we will be tossing uncompressed wav files around like they were text emails. Jonesy, you're right about the music industry. Which is why I'd like to buy the music directly from the artists. Spikee - EEEEEEK! :-) |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
| |||||||||
|
|
I think he should be happy that some people are willing to spend money on his music, not the other way around... |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
| |||||||||
|
|
DJ Shadow sucks, I cant afford all the music I dload, so what ?! Do you really think Id buy 20 Albums a month if there was no Intarnet ! |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
| |||||||||
|
|
If there was no internet, your comment would go unheard! :-| Hows that ? |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
| |||||||||
|
|
Thank Heavens for pirate music as far as Shadow is concerned. I'm relieved I didn't pay for his last album. |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
| |||||||||
|
|
Actually you prolly won't have that much bandwidth because ISPs are planing to limit the amount of bandwidth you use to stop piracy. If you use too much (by downloading albums and movies) you will be charged more or simply not allowed. I don't know if this will happen but I heard about it. *moves closer to ears slowly* |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
| |||||||||
|
|
Yeah, I didn't like it too much either. But I personally do buy what I like. |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
| |||||||||
|
|
I think that for a lot of people downloading MP3's can persuade them into buying the real album. Also, ¤ 22,- for an album is too fucking expensive. And seeing that a lot of IDM/electronic albums have to be ordered there are shipping costs on top of that ¤ 22,- I have downloaded quite a few albums myself (guess that make me a fuckhead???) because I do not want to pay 25 bucks for an album unless it's REALLY good. |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
| |||||||||
|
|
Yes, but many, many people will refuse to pay for intangible music. Spikee: There will always be some ISPs who will allow you unlimited dls (although they may charge you more). People like AOL have ties to the music industry, so it is likely that they will stop it, but I reckon people like NTL will keep on providing unlimited broadband :D |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
| |||||||||
|
|
Besides that, Soulseek is the only P2P network right now with really "Underground artists". |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
| |||||||||
|
|
I cite my regular copyright/mp3 argument. Yes, jolly sad that your sales are down (where do they get their stats? The year napster was at its height record sales were up 10%, this year they're down due to a general slump- people have been laid off in my company due to the world recession following 9/11) but I have bought at least 20 albums that I wouldn't of had I not DLed them first and there is only one album I have on MP3 that I would buy if I didn't have it on MP3. |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
| |||||||||
|
|
I think that for a lot of people downloading MP3's can persuade them into buying the real album. Absolutely! Most everything I like is not played on the radio (at least not in Montreal *growl*). So for me file sharing has replaced the radio, or other means of hearing about new music like mtv or muchmusic. How many albums did I buy per year before filesharing? two, maybe four tops. Music sucked! There was nothing good! After filesharing, two to four disks a month. Why? Because I get to taste stuff that in the past I was curious about but didn't want to risk shelling out for. Do I download stuff and then not pay for it? Sure. But if I'd heard it on the radio I'd also not pay for it. Something to note - if a band has a few free tracks on a site like epitonic.com I'll buy their stuff rather than freeload. I mean, if it's good. Spikee, Spikee, Spikee - I knew it was a mistake to use a furry avatar around here :-) |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
| |||||||||
|
|
*chews an ear and grins* |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
| |||||||||
|
|
Solution: If you like the music, send a donation to the artists you download. It will be more than the share that they would get if you purchased the album through a vendor. |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
| |||||||||
|
|
He has a point, but the way I see is like this: If I like the music enough I'll buy it. I've downloaded thousands of mp3's, and a lot of them are enjoyable to listen to, but if the only way to here them was to buy them I wouldn't buy them. If I think somethings good enough to buy I will and do. I own a few hundred cd's and plan to buy more. I own over 20 AFX cd's alone. So download all you want, but if it's good enough own, but it... |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
| |||||||||
|
|
i use mp3s to "scout" albums i guess. i buy albums even if i have the mp3s of them. (doll doll doll, twoism, lunatic harness, etc) i'd like to say that i sure as hell buy a lot of cds for some one with no job. usually 2 or 3 a month, lots of times using lunch money for music instead of food. for me, p2p is like my own radio, except it plays stuff i actually want. if radiostations started playing better music instead of selling airtime to record labels, i would buy much more music instead of downloading. |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
| |||||||||
|
|
i blame the radio AND the record industry, 20 bucks for a cd is too fuckin much. if they lowered their prices to about 10/cd they'd have much more sales |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
| |||||||||
|
|
"20 bucks for a cd is too fuckin much. if they lowered their prices to about 10/cd they'd have much more sales" true... very true. Cd's are definitely overpriced. But that still doesn't make it right to steal the music! I don't think anybody has a problem with people who use mp3's to get to know new artists and album, and then if they like what they hear to buy the actual album. The evil pirates are the people who simply refuse to pay for the music. Downloading tons of mp3's every day, and never setting foot in a recordstore anymore. I don't care what kind of stories they make up to shush their conscience (the industry being evil and blah blah blah...) they're just wrong and they know it! :-p. MP3's should delete themselves after a month or something. That would give people a fair amount of time to get to know the music and decide whether they want to buy it. |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
| |||||||||
|
|
I agree with Fleetmouse that basically there are too many artists all clamouring to try and make money from the sale of CDs. I think they all need to get a life and grow up. The fact is for most even the more successful artists its hard trying to make money in the music industry. People just like to fantasise that they can sit in a studio all day and crap around with some sounds, live like a hermit and that'll be their life. Get into the real world make music as a pleasure and yeah if you sell some CDs on the side its a nice measure of success and a bit of fun, leave it at that. People who try and make a living out of being an artist are just sad cases. Unless they've got a decent strategy to make it worth their while then they just shouldn't be complaining. Jonesy, This business about the artists being exploited get a life you socialist loony. There are plenty of other people and businesses in the industry that have to work their buts off to make a dime as well so why the hell shouldn't they get their slice of the cake? Besides half of these artists are so desperate for fame or whatever and so bloody ignorant in the first place that they deserve to get shafted. Oh yeah and people do have a choice you know, they do have free will believe it or not. No one is forcing them to sign this or that contract or to get involved in the music industry. |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
| |||||||||
|
|
20 bucks for a CD!? Where I get my CD's (the beloved Select-a-Disc), I get brand new releases for around £11. You only have to pay around twenty for Imports and Lim Edi's... |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
| |||||||||
|
|
dont forget them high arse import prices! esp. when your all the way out here. |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
| |||||||||
|
|
Any society should nurture and take care of it's artists :-( Especially because being an artist is not like a "normal" job... it's a wonderful thing that there exists such an industry that allows artists to just be artists... musicians to just make music. Ofcourse any "artist" that starts making music just to become famous does not deserve such a treatment. But i'm talking about the ones who make music because they don't have a choice. The songs are inside them and they have to get out. You (promo) are talking in a very economic way. Sure it's hard to put a price or any real "value" on music. Artist enjoy making music, they should just be happy that people are willing to listen to them in the first place... how the hell can they expect to be paid for it aswell?? But i really don't think we would have most of the favourite cd's in our collection if people like Richard D James, Tom Jenkinson and Sean Booth would have boring office-jobs on the side to pay for the rent. The only reason they've been able to develop themselves to what they are today, is that a company like Warp allows the do it pretty much fulltime. Why are you being so harsh on musicians? Throughout history people have been proud of their artist and allowed them to do what they do best... thus making this life a little more pleasant for you and me. The world would be a very empty place if there wasn't anymore room for true artists. |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
| |||||||||
|
|
yeah, but most of them had office jobs by now without filesharing. man, i never came around idm at all without the internet, and saying internet i mean filesharing. over 100 cd's wouldn't have been sold without napster. i don't want to be offensive, but please stop whining 'cause most of those who you want to protect from the evil thiefes would not be as popular as they are now. and fleetmouse is perfectly right again! |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
| |||||||||
|
|
*'stop whining' was not adressed to you personally |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
| |||||||||
|
|
I agree with this idea. Although I feel a little bad about downloading music, I feel worse about paying $17.99 for a CD that cost 50 cents to manufacture and something like $2.00 goes to the artist. Record labels choke the radios with their artists and don't even pay them adequately for their artistry. So, in essence, I don't feel bad for not paying into an industry that needs to be consumer-oriented and artist-oriented. (Although, I do buy CDs if I really like their work... so I'm contradicting myself.) I'd adore the person who set up a system in which listeners could pay artists directly for their work. Music would be more affordable for listeners and more lucrative for artists. |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
| |||||||||
|
|
Ah, the eternal battle between the muse and the paycheck. :-) I think if an artist can find a large enough audience he ought to be able to find a way to extract money from them in return for listening pleasure. I think the answer lies in making music files available that are so easy to obtain and so high quality that it's actually cheaper and easier to give the artist a few bucks for them through paypal rather than hunting around on Kazaa or whatnot for incomplete, shitty sounding files. Unfortunately, the spacetime continuum is structured in such a way that the less popular artists will have smaller audiences and hence fewer money making opportunities. They can sell their organs for research or food! |
||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
|
Messageboard index
|
|||||||||
