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I don't know how familair you are with the Jungian theory of people's need for folklore/mythology as part of their mental make up (crop circles, the x files and urban myths are all supposedly modern day equivalents of old superstitions and legends). I've noticed there seem to be a lot of parallels with myths/stories relating to music, things such as Rich's lost MP3 player or the whole cult mythology surrounding BoC. Just wondering if anyone else had noticed this and what people's views were... |
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:) .. dunno if i'd want to take it to the extent Jung does (haven't actually read any, but from what i've heard).. its a nice idea though. Seems to be a marketing ploy, but then maybe that marketing ploy is exploiting this human need ? His theory is based on Freudian psychoanalysis eh? |
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Now that you've mentioned it there does seem a kind of mythology surrounding the man. Like the creating of his own instruments. People dispute it yet others are totally into it. The aforementioned MP3 player. I'm sure he creates a lot of this himself for a laugh. A lot of musicians have an "Urban Legend" attached to them. The Queen party with Dwarves serving Coke on trays. Just how much of that story is true? Marley smoking an ounce of ganga a day when he died. |
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His inital work was based on freud (he studied under him), but he gradually broke apart and their final ideas were very different. I think lots of the music myths are somthing that interest us and the process of storytelling is a shared experience which we as social creatures (even you ophecks ;) ) supposedly crave. Like you say, I suspect certain artists have latched onto this and exploit it (either for their personal amusement or as a marketing ploy). |
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All these things make the celebrity that much more interesting, even if they are fabrications... |
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interesting stuff ... because it seems that there is a "natural"? tendency to tell stories bigger and taller than they really are .. it's like its answering the social expectation of a story to be entertaining. what i meant re: freudian, does his theory have the same framework (obviously he's not quite so sex obsessed), but the whole unconscious etc? Adler was the other one who based his stuff on Freud aye? inferiority complex and all - also quite an intriguing thought |
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Exactly. Maybe it's his way of keeping himself in the fan's eyes while not necessarily in the Publics. The things you hear about him are not the sort of thing that make the main press but are weird enough to be remembered by the fans. I very much doubt I'd ever see an Daily Mail article about Aphex Twin. Even though he was nominated for a Brit (Which made me laugh) if he'd won they would have just mentioned some group called Aphex Twin. It's quite clever how he does it really. |
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Yes, supposedly exaggeration of a story/anecdote is meant to be due to an urge to entertain like a bard, even when recounting something factual (like company profits, enron? ;) ) Jung was interested in the unconcious, he saw it as a way to a spiritual/imagination based plane. He occasionally had visions and a spiritual guide called phileamon, but he accepted they weren't "real" in the literal sense, but products of his unconcious mind. He was definately not as sex obsessed as freud (I saw a program interviewing freud's descendants & followers of his style of psychology/psychiatry, they were quite fucked up.) Haven't read any Adler, sorry. I don't dig a lot of psychiatry, I think a good rule is to look at the lives of those who teach it, you see the problems freud had and you have to question how seriously you can take the opinion of someone like that. |
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mm.. true that. Seems to work the same with gossip. I mean, there's an entire magazine industry that seems to be based on this. "did you know so and so did this and that etc." All I know about Alfred Adler is that somehow in childhood you get the inferiority complex [sorry this is pretty sketchy], and then later on they tend to be the over achievers, low self esteem etc .. ?? The whole "seeing" and "hearing" things is quite interesting. I did a course in abnormal psych start of this year - very interesting stuff. |
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One of my mates is doing a criminal profiling degree. Looks quite interesting... The thing about the inferiority complex seems true, it's the kids who get picked on at school that seem to feel the greatest need to prove themselves. Re: Magazine industry. I agree, I was over a girl's house at a party and I was amazed how many magazines there were about celebrities littered all over the house. I had no idea there were so many magazines dedicated to speculation about what I really consider "fictional people" (they're not really "real" to most people, even their real lives seem more like an actor's role), let alone that people could read so many. I really don't understand the concept of celebrity, I'm not star struck when I meet "famous people", nor am I really interested in their personal lives. Like I say, I find the folklore surrounding music intersting, but I accept that it is almost certainly fabrication/at least greatly exaggerated. |
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actually, the world of celebrities is sort of a myth in itself isn't it. I mean, as you say they're not "real" - its just a means to this end - story telling i'm muddling this all up, but its also kind of like a retreat this mythical world from the real. the likes of "hear'say" and what not .. i don't know .. all lot seems to revolve around respect, (although that doesn't always/really work for celebrities) .. |
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I know what you mean. There was an intereting debate in a magazine on whether Pamela Anderson was any more "real" than Lara Croft. I dunno, they're both silicone based life forms ;) It's strange people have a great deal of respect for celebrities (the majority of American said in one poll that they didn't think celebrities should go to prison!) and at the same time seem to love it when they have a scandal/downfalll. |
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yeah that scandal part seems a little contradictory. Slightly different to Jung .. but Levi-Strauss (Claude, not the jeans), an anthropologist who studied myths, and claimed to have found a common structure to myths ... it all revolves around a contradiction, the contradiction of birth i think it boiled down to. But it was quite cool, drawing parallels between some south american myths and the oedipus myth et c.:) i mean even this - this whole virtual/internet thing .. is THIS real? its kind of like another world really. You assume the cloak of anonymity, yet you don't remain anonymous - you become a virtual person ... blah blah ?? |
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Infact levi-strauss, later modified his theory to fit the structure of myth (ie. his theory was a myth!) |
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I know, in existential fits you can wonder if this whole chat room (apart from people on it you know in real life) could merely be a computer program. Perhaps that's why people here like to send/recieve packages to other members? It certainly re-inforces the "reality" of it :) I've heard of levi-strauss, but haven't read any, could you recommend some (I saw a beginners guide to levi-strauss which, rather amusingly, had a pair of jeans on the front cover). |
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Didn't Jung shag his patients, the dirty fucker. |
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Mmm.. lemme see, maybe "Structural Anthropology", New York: Basic Books (1958)? Although I think his "Mythologiques" (4volumes!), is his master piece, tho quite a bit to read for a leisurely read. I have an extract from Structural Anthropology - in "the Continental Philosophy Reader" by Richard Kearney & Mara Rainwater - London, Routledge (2000) ... [which i highly recommend anyone interested in 20th century continental philosophy: Covers a lot of ground, and has nice intro's and the most representative work of the philosopher.] But back to the internet thing. I don't mean in a solipsistic/skeptic sort of way - "is there really anyone on the other end of the line", but more its a totally parallel world. Real, but not "real" in the sense that its substantial .. its a virtual existence or something? |
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Freud certainly did .. he "treated" his patients, by letting of the sexual steam the id was conjuring up :) |
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Probably :) |
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He loved his Charlie too. Good lad. |
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didn't know that .. but respect. apparently he was a coke addict as well? nb off not of - hate those freudian slaps. |
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Haven't you seen Good Will Hunting? hehe |
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i have, i have ... :) |
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Robin Williams makes reference to the fact. Hey, I don't get my knowledge from books you know :D |
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Mm.. must have slipped my mind. ah .. i thought matt damon would have said such a thing - so was racking my brain - all i can remember robin williams going on about, is his wife farting in bed :D |
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this whole urban myth thing, could be an urban myth itself .. neat-O |
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jung seemed to have uncovered some very interesting stuff in his research. one ohis patients who was schizophrenic was looking out the window one day, and he described in great detail a scene that was somthing like a giant penis pouring forth from the sun and swaying in the wind. jung found years later the exact story in a myth of some ancient people, and there was no way this patient had read up on this. there is much more to mythology than imaginative creations. they reflect universal experiences and experiences that can be tapped into. when you think about it though, everything we learn is tapped into, or channeled. when you are "taught" something, how is it that the information is transmitted? the teacher, or teaching experience is merely a sign that you willfully to tap into the information.experience, hence everything already exists, waiting to be tapped. |
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should be something like "a sign that you willfully follow to the information" or experience..." |
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existence is essentially based on a contradiction. i'm a bit weary bout universalising claims tho .. but yeah .. it's interesting to hear what some people have to say .. apparently, according to some people who recovered from schizophrenia, - re: the voices they heard - they reckon .. "the voices were there all along .. you just don't realise it" - its quite an intruiging thought .. what? who said that |
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well in respone to your first post, marketing is all based (pretty much) on psychology and all that... I'm doing consumer behavior this term actually, and it's basically a psych course, but applied to business, and how consumers behave... so, all marketing is based on this kind of stuff... |
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altough aphex rocks... i do think he is put on a pedestal too much. we look at him as like some godly figure. hes just a dude. |
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that he is... he's just a guy... but he deserves a lot of respect, but yeah respect is different then worship... |
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that it is. complete paradox underlies all. i have trouble not believing that physics is real, that nothing behaves other than physical law allows, but at the same time i cannot believe that my free will and consciousness are an illusion. the paradox is the anser to itself in a way. to understand you simply have to accept the mystery and feel it rather comprehend it. |
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Aye .. this should be suitably topical. "The world becomes fable, the world as such is only a fable. A fable is something which is told, having no existence outside the tale. The world is something which is told, an event which is narrated; it is therefore an interpretation. Religion, art, science, history are so many diverse interpretations of the world, or rather, so many variants of the fable." - Nietzsche |
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i agree with you on this one. it is so easy to think him as a superiority, but then again, there are people who have known him before he was aphex twin and at least the know he is normal. i have met people before knowing they were some famous artists and after you hear that it is easy to change attitude. it must be so annoying from their side :) |
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no, nobody is normal. we are all eccentric characters at some depth, and the artists let some of that be seen. the reaction is caused by the fact that he is god, as much as the rest of us, and he has an outlet, his music. |
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