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that is also its problem though - relating to the real .. |
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See, Bush is relying on his "knowledge" of things that is nothing more than his feeble attempt of percepting the world. |
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But we all have to start somewhere. |
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That was a really worthy contribution to this thread, jonesy. We thank you for it. |
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ahh.. good ol causality eh, quite a nifty concept really |
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No probs. |
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causality? Where have I refer to it? Jonesy, I'm off to look for Jennifer Beals pic for you. |
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Meho: relax, i was referring to jonesy's "we all have to start somewhere" -jonesy © |
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this post somehow reminds me of Coldcuts timber video .. |
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Haha, yes. Timber............................ |
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some of those other video's are pretty wicked actually - the one with all the animals, - where the beetle is the bass? :) |
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ok, if one does not sense the sound with one's ears, they are still affected by it. think chaos. every subtle nuance, given enough time, will affect you in someway. the sound is made, where you are conscious of it or not. when you turn your back, quantum mechanics does not suggest that the world dissapears, but that it is not the same as when you observe it. and you, the individual is not seperate from the tree itself, or the sound for that matter. so denying the sound is denying a pert of yourself. |
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i think the real question is whether the universe is dependant on you to observe it or not it could be rephrased: "when you die, will the universe end or contine on without you?" do you have to be here to experience it for it to exist? "is everything in your head?" (ie the tree would not make a noise cus u do not hear it, so the noise might as well not exist... things only exist in ur mind) "...or is your head in everything? "(ie the universe exists outside your mind, and in fact your mind is of the universe not the other way around.. ie u aren't so important, trees can make noise without your consent lol) am i making sense? |
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''ps - the guy who majored in philosophy and doubts his own existence, please answer! '' Hehehehehhe! |
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very young children do not realize that things can still exist when they go out of site ie, their mother wight as well ceasc to exist when she leaves the room it is considered a major step in the development of every child when they realize things can exist outside of their sphere of observation |
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im not saying the baby is right, lol its just an interesting side note thats all... |
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yep major's sucking memory 's back and eat your glasshole ;o)jjj |
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could u repeat the question mmmkay? |
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the tree obviously makes a sound..... |
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Look at it this way: the nervous system is the primary instument by which (or through which) all other instruments are read. All sensory experience must pass through the nervous system before "you" will see, taste, feel, smell, or hear it. Thus, you are left with a neuro-chemical representation of the hypothetical "objective" reality. YOU ARE THE OBSERVATION. The tree is you. The music is you. Your mother kissing you is you. Once the sense organs are stimulated and the energy (thermal, kinetic, etc.) is translated into a signal that the nervous system can deal with, then it is a part of your body. The question is; can you climb out of your NS and see the hypothetical objective reality as it exists and appears in and of itself? Can we even know that such a reality exists outside of our subjective experience? I don't know. This is just one model among many. |
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if by sound you mean vibrations in the air, then the answer is yes. if by sound you mean vibrations that are transmitted by our ears and interpretted by our brain as "sound", then the answer is no. if by god you mean aphex twin, then the answer is yes. |
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Empiricus, well put lad. |
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Thank You. |
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yeah, nice |
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(...and i thought i would feel less stupid back home than during my lessons... i'd just have to kill myself someday -_-) everything i had thought of about this subject has been put in much more better terms and more developed. i'd just like to see one tree fall someday, make a waterish 'splash' sound, then bounce, and bounce, and bounce again, higher and higher, until it is on orbit. let the trees make the sound they want, goddamn!! why couldn't they make a sound, no sound at all, an anti-sound, a splashing sound, a 'boing' sound, a guitar sound when they fall. someone make a petition about this, i'm very tired. |
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i do not think, i am aware of thinking |
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the phase you speak of, where every kid will learn that things continue to exist even though they can observe it (dont know what it's called in english, but in french, it's 'permance de l'object') is a little different from the tree question. im not arguing the fact that if im not observing a physical object, it ceases to exist. the fact that something happens in the forest is independant from my being witnessing it or not. though the opposite is possible, the tree is still there, the falling of the tree will vibrate the air. where everything changes is here: when the vibrating air enters your ear, it activates a complex mechanism composed of small bones, which will themselves activate the cochlea (im translating as i think it's called in english), which will transform the mechanical information into electric information. from there, the info will end up a specialized part of your brain (via the nervous system) that will give you the experience of sound. what woud happen if the nervous system would send the electrical information to another part of you brain instead, let's say the specialized region associated with the feeling of pain? in this case, the tree wouldnt make a sound, it would cause you physical pain. hehe, im starting to wonder why im giving you this answer though...! |
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wow, nicely said. i find it impossible to for us to have access to the real world, in an objective way. since we communicate with what we think is an outside world (outside from you) via our senses, there's no way for us to know if what we experience is really like it is. we perceive the world through sensory systems which are subjective. |
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all of this to say that when we listen to the same autechre track, we dont hear the same thing... ;) |
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"The wise man and the fool do not see the same tree." |
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ive often wondered how other people percieve the world. my conclusion is that people just totally see the world differently. cause if they saw what i saw, theyd all be depressed |
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well, it makes a sound, but yes, thats a zen koan and is really meant to induce pondering but no real answer, just further thinking. the following statement is true the proceeding statement was false |
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whoops, i think its preceding statement. ah well, you get the point |
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if you go back to the moment of birth, i imagine that the baby does not distinguish between self and environment. you are your experience. we learn to differentiate for surival of our central body, but it is an illusion of survival that our identity ends at our skin. the tree is a part of you, as is the sound, and when you don't expereince the sound it is simply in your subconcious (everything that you are not conscious of). |
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just read your post empiricus... guess thats very similar |
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"A human being is part of a whole, called by us the "Universe," a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings, as something separated from the rest--a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circles of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty." Albert Einstein ...to draw the picture more clearly |
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all this suffers from the 3rd man problem, trying to distance/abstract oneself, whilst ignoring that one is immersed in it all. |
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jupitah: VERY interesting thought!! i will definitely remember this one, thanks! empericus: nice! who said that? or is it just a known saying? cortex: i know the baby and the tree are different situations/questions... i wasn't suggesting they are the same, but, as i said, the baby was just an interesting side note |
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