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amazon's equity infested tolkien-free lord of the rings for zoomers
 

offline Wolfslice from Bay Area, CA (United States) on 2022-02-18 10:40 [#02616522]
Points: 3738 Status: Regular



anyone here actually gonna watch this thing?

i'm personally rooting for a complete and utter failure, the
likes of which has never been seen before.


 

offline Wolfslice from Bay Area, CA (United States) on 2022-02-18 10:45 [#02616523]
Points: 3738 Status: Regular



I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and
I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.


 

offline umbroman3 from United Kingdom on 2022-02-18 10:48 [#02616524]
Points: 5647 Status: Regular



never been a fan of CGI orcs, dragons, or whatever


 

offline Wolfslice from Bay Area, CA (United States) on 2022-02-18 11:08 [#02616526]
Points: 3738 Status: Regular



In Peter Jackson's trilogy the orcs were mostly just old
school costumes/makeup

orcs

Course there was a bunch of CGI shit too, but he also used
pretty detailed miniatures for most of the locations.

I know this because I have the super extended versions and I
watched like all 40 hours of bonus content on each one.
Maybe the nerdiest shit I've ever sat through.

But even as much as I like the original trilogy, it loses
the essential literary quality of Tolkien's spoken word. The
dude elevated his shit, and invented the genre at the same
time.


 

offline umbroman3 from United Kingdom on 2022-02-18 11:26 [#02616527]
Points: 5647 Status: Regular



thanks i didnt know what an orc was tbh

in primary school i borrowed a tolkien book from the library
and pretended to read it all. i didnt read a word of it. how
pathetic of me. lol :-)


 

offline mermaidman on 2022-02-18 13:26 [#02616529]
Points: 7269 Status: Addict



frodo is half mexican in the books


 

offline Tony Danza from Hollywood on 2022-02-18 13:42 [#02616531]
Points: 3019 Status: Regular



Merry and Pippin called him Frito because he was always
fried from massive bong hits of pipeweed

in the books


 

offline mermaidman on 2022-02-18 13:48 [#02616532]
Points: 7269 Status: Addict



it is first revealed that he is half mexican when he invites
his family to celebrate dia de los muertos first book
chapter 3


 

offline Tony Danza from Hollywood on 2022-02-18 14:01 [#02616533]
Points: 3019 Status: Regular



in the Forgotten Tales, Sam's uncle Gumblebum is forced to
retire from his professorship for saying Dwarf with a hard R


 

offline mermaidman on 2022-02-18 14:21 [#02616535]
Points: 7269 Status: Addict



yeah and his excuse was that he was allowed to say it with a
hard r because he's married to a dwarf himself


 

offline Tony Danza from Hollywood on 2022-02-18 14:55 [#02616537]
Points: 3019 Status: Regular



dwarf please


 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2022-02-18 15:00 [#02616538]
Points: 30247 Status: Regular



It looks disastrous, it has no essence of Middle Earth
whatsoever, looks like a shit video game cut scene


 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2022-02-18 15:05 [#02616539]
Points: 30247 Status: Regular



I think i read somewhere the woman who is writing it has
made up her own characters, you might as well wipe your arse
with a copy of the history of middle earth.

There is alot i like about American culture, and Americans
but giving them the reins over something which is
fundamentally European in feel and scope is a tremendously
bad idea. Its like asking Alan Bennet to write and direct
Die Hard.


 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2022-02-18 15:44 [#02616540]
Points: 30247 Status: Regular



Then again i don't think its something that is narratively
suited for television or movies. If you read something like
the Silmarillion its more like a description of events,
although there are stories embedded with in. Its just Jeff
Bezos trying to make loads of money from the IP. If its a
success i will be genuinely surprised.


 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2022-02-18 15:47 [#02616541]
Points: 30247 Status: Regular



I got into an argument with someone on twitter, cos they
were going on about Tolkien and how he wasn't a racist which
is true but I posted this article by Michael Moorcroft
was Tolkien a crypto fascist. and the guy was
saying "bullshit bullshit" even though the article was sort
of tongue in cheek.

Plus Tolkien supported Franco in the Spanish Civil war so he
was far from perfect


 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2022-02-18 16:25 [#02616542]
Points: 30247 Status: Regular



Actually just realised gave this far too much thought as I
won't be watching, hopefully some people enjoy it. Much
better off sticking to the books i reckon


 

offline Tony Danza from Hollywood on 2022-02-18 16:35 [#02616543]
Points: 3019 Status: Regular | Followup to Hyperflake: #02616541



Moorcock has a light touch but he's on point there. Tolkien
is at the very least a reactionary. His heroes are the
stolid country folk, the hobbits, who want no truck with
Saruman and his industrialization. Tolkien is anti-progress.
He would hate the way China is building high speed rail and
elevating its peasants out of crushing poverty.

I wouldn't say he's a RETVRN style traditionalist like some
of his fans - Varg for example. But certainly reactionary.
George Monbiot made a good point that we love narratives and
this is why we can cheer for hereditary monarchy as an
ideology in LOTR, where Aragorn comes to the throne because
of his awesome genes. This doesn't justify revision of
Tolkien's work. Leave it as it is, don't try to put
blackface on it. Why not just create new narratives. But
that's not how we milk a franchise, is it?


 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2022-02-18 17:11 [#02616545]
Points: 30247 Status: Regular | Followup to Tony Danza: #02616543



Yeah i mean I wouldn't go so far with calling Tolkien a
fascist but he seems to be overly preoccupied with
hereditary lineages, order, chivalry stuff like that. It
seems sort of subconscious but Middle Earth seems like a
classist place. The Elves and Númenóreans men are like the
upper classic, aristocracy types, high culture, long lived.
Sort of an unattainable position in society for an upper
middle class guy like Tolkien.

The Hobbits, middle class to upper working class, Bilbo is
like Tolkien's avatar in middle earth. smoking a pipe and a
fascination with his betters i.e. elves

Orcs/tolls very working class/underclass talk with a
stereotypical cockney accent lol. No culture, violent and
usually covered in dirt like the workers in the industrial
revolution




 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2022-02-18 17:22 [#02616546]
Points: 30247 Status: Regular



Yeah suppose Sauron is the personification/spectre of
industrialisation/hardcore capitalism,

LAZY_TITLE no coincidence the midlands used to look
like mordor

and Tolkien's own sketch of Barad-dûr looks a bit like some
victorian era brickwork factory brickwork factory


 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2022-02-18 17:27 [#02616547]
Points: 30247 Status: Regular



I was a massive Tolkien fan as a kid/teenager first read the
Hobbit in 1992 but I think its hard for me to see past all
this fascination with the elves and stuff in his work and
realise its probably a subconscious desire of his to be
aristocracy or royal especially as someone who is lower
class like myself who has never had that desire. I associate
much more with the Hobbits in a cosy small house smoking
pipes, eating cheese, drinking ale and walking through the
woods


 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2022-02-18 17:36 [#02616548]
Points: 30247 Status: Regular



LAZY_TITLE


 

offline hevquip from megagram dusk sect (United States) on 2022-02-18 19:01 [#02616552]
Points: 3271 Status: Lurker



i look at the bigger picture: a society that's been
juvenilized & infantilized and is obsessed with nerd
shit/children's hobbies like comic books, videogames,
superheroes, cosplay, adult cartoons, harry potter, and all
this fantasy shit that has turned these things into being
part of an identity and/or lifestyle. too much arrested
development going on in the western hemisphere. i shouldn't
have to look at a grown man wearing elmo & big bird
streetwear or cars plastered in marvel & star wars bumper
stickers. it's time to grow up.


 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2022-02-18 19:25 [#02616553]
Points: 30247 Status: Regular | Followup to hevquip: #02616552



I have to say I totally agree with that, especially when it
comes to the endless superhero movies, when a adult says oh
yeah I love the Harry Potter books I do get a bit
disconcerted, as you said its the infantalisatioon of
culture.


 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2022-02-18 19:31 [#02616554]
Points: 30247 Status: Regular | Followup to hevquip: #02616552



LAZY_TITLE


 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2022-02-18 19:32 [#02616555]
Points: 30247 Status: Regular | Followup to hevquip: #02616552



We have people like that in the UK but it seems much more
prevalent in America like to the Nth degree


 

offline Tony Danza from Hollywood on 2022-02-18 19:35 [#02616556]
Points: 3019 Status: Regular | Followup to hevquip: #02616552



Stepladder?


 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2022-02-18 19:49 [#02616561]
Points: 30247 Status: Regular



I still play videogames from time to time


 

offline Wolfslice from Bay Area, CA (United States) on 2022-02-18 21:51 [#02616563]
Points: 3738 Status: Regular | Followup to hevquip: #02616552



I dunno. You're venturing on making a firm statement on the
"point of living," when there's no real point other than to
procreate (I guess-- been with my gf for 10 years and told
her day 1 not interested in kids ever, no regrets).

What else would be the point? climbing the corporate ladder?
Art and entertainment immersion seem as valid as anything
else. Hobbies in general. People act like gaming is a less
valid hobby than model trains or something, but that's a
shit boomer take. fuck your trains old man.

Anyway it's all kinda moot because what I *didn't* see
coming at ALL was an extreme push to use all my old favorite
nerd shit as a vessel for (leftist) political messaging.
It's not just LOTR, I don't trust anything being made in
2022. I don't trust any critical reviewer to not be agenda
first in 2022. This is a real trash time for entertainment
(last 7 years or so), if you respect artistic integrity on
any level.


 

offline hevquip from megagram dusk sect (United States) on 2022-02-18 22:21 [#02616565]
Points: 3271 Status: Lurker | Followup to Wolfslice: #02616563



everything has been infiltrated & subverted because a)
that's the modus operandi of the left i.e. resorting to
manipulation & guilt/shaming tactics to coerce people into
taking up a cause due to an inability to enact policy &
ideology via force and b) this started long ago by putting
it in the minds of children over the last several decades
and now those children have reached adult age who work
in/operate/control these institutions.

there's also identitarian hyper-capitalism (i say this as
someone who advocates for capitalism) where the message has
become "buy the thing! spend money on the thing! you want to
be part of the thing right? then just give us the cash! you
can buy into your identity! spend money to become the thing!
reinforce your identity and buy our shit to feel like you're
part of the thing! we don't have to put out a good product,
we just have to put *a* product appealing to identities and
brainless consumers will flock to it!". it's down to pumping
out a product with a bare minimum effort involved knowing
consumers will still consume it for their dopamine fix &
identity reinforcement.

also the psychological profile of the left wing is that of
narcissism & manipulation of the parasocial relationship, as
in "we will make our problems your problems. you will be
forced to care about what we care about. we will continually
shove it down your throat and if you disagree, we will
resort to those guilt/shame tactics & demonization and throw
a tantrum until you placate us"

view them as children who go out of their way to annoy
people and then go "neener neener neener! you can't touch
me!"; the type to provoke you into smacking them around so
they can go "he hit me! he hit me! make them stop! i'm a
victim!" and then the person who actually tried to
administer any sort of discipline or put their foot down is
the one who gets in trouble/demonized.

where this all ends is in essentially a reactionary force
eventually stomping the fuck out of them (physically or
figuratively)


 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2022-02-18 22:25 [#02616566]
Points: 30247 Status: Regular | Followup to Wolfslice: #02616563



LAZY_TITLE

this is the sort of nitpicking that I find hilarious,
Dwarves aren't even real


 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2022-02-18 22:28 [#02616567]
Points: 30247 Status: Regular | Followup to hevquip: #02616565



Its the American definition of the left, its neo-liberalism
to my mind, when I think of the left I think purely in
economic terms i.e. socialism, seems to have morphed into
this Culture war bollocks now

Corporate media have done a very good job of painting people
who are traditionally left as hysterical purple haired
sexually ambiguous nightmares.

When i think of the left I think of Arthur Scargill and
people like that


 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2022-02-18 22:30 [#02616568]
Points: 30247 Status: Regular



Oh well looks like the ultra capitalists and Rupert Murdoch
has won, people are just going on and on about shit that
doesn't matter from both sides of the political spectrum
while the rest of human race is being bummed to death.



 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2022-02-18 22:31 [#02616569]
Points: 30247 Status: Regular



I do it myself sometimes, engage in this pointless culture
war, its ultimately fruitless I reckon cos human
civilization doesn't have that long left, perhaps a few half
dozen generations


 

offline Wolfslice from Bay Area, CA (United States) on 2022-02-18 22:40 [#02616570]
Points: 3738 Status: Regular | Followup to hevquip: #02616565



You're right that it's definitely a corporate problem, it's
not the government doing this. Companies play it super safe
now, and are trying to cover their own ass. If the first
question a studio asks is "where is the diversity," then no
one will ever get off the ground without playing by those
rules. Hardcore progressives have just been going through
this avenue for the last few years and it seems to be
working for them.

I don't get "representation" as a factor in writing.
Characters never represent me... What the amount of melanin
in my skin is supposed to somehow make me the same as Bruce
Willis? We're nothing alike. I want the characters to be the
characters. I don't respect anyone who asks to be
represented in their entertainment. It's pathetic.

Maybe spending a billion dollars (actual cost) on this LOTR
thing and getting low viewership will be an eye opener. We
used to TRY and tell new stories all the time when I was
growing up, and now it's just re-tread the old with a veneer
of woke. Nothing worthwhile has come of this.


 

offline Wolfslice from Bay Area, CA (United States) on 2022-02-18 22:45 [#02616571]
Points: 3738 Status: Regular | Followup to Hyperflake: #02616567



Yeah my dad lives in Germany, and he's like "we have a very
different definition of leftism here. Most Germans do not
know what Americans are talking about when you refer to
"leftist" [with regards to social progressive identify
politics stuff]." It's almost a semantical distinction-- I
have zero problems with the economic left or social
programs, but I have a big problem with the cultural push
coming from that wing here in the US. Do forgive my
Americanism there.

And it shows too, I think my favorite piece of entertainment
in the last 10 years of so was a German show called Dark
(it's really great). No bullshit messaging, just a kick ass
time travel web.


 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2022-02-18 22:46 [#02616572]
Points: 30247 Status: Regular | Followup to Wolfslice: #02616571



Yeah exactly you said it better than I did


 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2022-02-18 22:47 [#02616573]
Points: 30247 Status: Regular



I think its a very successful smear cos people in America
probably associate socialism with sexual deviants and
identity politics rather than its original meaning


 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2022-02-18 22:52 [#02616574]
Points: 30247 Status: Regular



I mean lets face it there was no way this wasn't going to be
a PC disaster being made in 2022


 

offline Tony Danza from Hollywood on 2022-02-18 22:56 [#02616575]
Points: 3019 Status: Regular | Followup to Wolfslice: #02616571



Yes, absolutely. Continental Europeans still have a
tradition of real economic leftism that has been long gone
in most of the English speaking world since Thatcher /
Reagan. Over here now it's just catpeople fighting for
pronoun recognition on social networking platforms.


 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2022-02-18 23:00 [#02616576]
Points: 30247 Status: Regular



my dad was a trade unionist, masculine guy and avowed
leftist, he would have been very confused


 

offline Wolfslice from Bay Area, CA (United States) on 2022-02-18 23:02 [#02616577]
Points: 3738 Status: Regular | Followup to Hyperflake: #02616574



Being made in 2022 for 1 billion USD, lol.

We'll see how it goes.

I was so fucking excited for the midnight releases of all 3
LOTR movies. 17 year old wolfslice, just found aphex twin,
just started posting on XLT. Times were good.

The one thing that could really upset my worldview was to
start fucking with art to this degree. I just have to get
over it, I know-- but then what do I have left? *I* have not
found the meaning of life, but I've always been really happy
and comfortable in enjoying good art.


 

offline Tony Danza from Hollywood on 2022-02-18 23:05 [#02616578]
Points: 3019 Status: Regular | Followup to Hyperflake: #02616576



"leftism" has been neutered by liberals, turned away from
political forms that could upset wealth and power, turned
towards harmless fetishization of identity


 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2022-02-18 23:06 [#02616579]
Points: 30247 Status: Regular | Followup to Wolfslice: #02616577



We still have the books mate, i had no confidence this was
going to be any good, firstly cos it was being made by
Amazon as a TV series, and secondly the times that things
are made in, were identity politics are the first order of
business for everything including fantasy worlds written by
a British heterosexual author. Really they shouldn't be
making things based on people of that ilk if they find it so
objectional.

But if they made something purely written by someone whose
head is mired in modern postmodernist thinking it would be
pure shit and wouldn't make a dime. Thats the real paradox
isn't it??


 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2022-02-18 23:08 [#02616580]
Points: 30247 Status: Regular | Followup to Tony Danza: #02616578



Yeah and I get the feeling that alot of dark money and
political interests on the right were behind this shift, cos
if they can distract the mainstream political dialogue. Then
they don't have to be worried about their own position cos
everyone is bogged down in this self thought policing state
of affairs.


 

offline ijonspeches from 109P/Swift-Tuttle on 2022-02-19 10:27 [#02616582]
Points: 6689 Status: Regular | Show recordbag



i concur with civil sex rights are getting far too much
attention as opposed to equal opportunities, money and
power. its kind of a trap we fell in.

i didnt give much thought about the classicist world tolkien
describes, as in humans past (and present mostly too) its
all about heritage and we mostly lived and live in a
classicist system. however i dont feel dwarves, humans,
elves or hobbits stand in some kind of hierarchy towards
each other or one was explicitly better than the other, even
when elves are described as the purest of all etc due to
their long life and experience/knowledge, because THEY ALL
say things i agree or disagree with, they all strive for
things and act questionably at times and all have their
flaws, and most importantly they all get tempted by power.
which ultimately is what the story is about for me. even the
bad guys, sauron, the ring wraiths who were kings. they all
fall to the claim for power. no one can resist it thus it
must be destroyed. i cant find a better story to show the
problems power inherits.
even the later returned king feels its effect, rejects it
and he wont rule over all of middle earth, just a part of it
and only for a shorter amount of time than he would have
with the ring. the coronation scene in the lotr movie may
give a different impression at he very the end, but the book
and later the extended version show his death and we know
hes mortal becaue of the arwen plot. the bow to the hobbits
really put an exclamation mark against the existing
classicism as described in the lotr btw and its not the only
time he displays the supposedly lowest as equal. so imo he
shows classicism but he doesnt glorify it at all.

its my personal impression though. other people may only see
a colossal war story/movie for example. its kind of
subjective, because there are so many events and motives,
you may pick the ones you think about the most anyway or
reflect your personal opinion.



 

offline Wolfslice from Bay Area, CA (United States) on 2022-02-19 10:51 [#02616583]
Points: 3738 Status: Regular | Followup to ijonspeches: #02616582



I really like your breakdown (and completely agree with your
take on the themes). I can almost guarantee there's more
nuance in those paragraphs than will be showcased in the
entirety of the new show.

I think part the "class division" based on purity in LOTR
has a literal magical component though. The elves just got
more of the good stuff, whatever actual force that made the
Ents and the wizards, rangers, hobbits and everything else
in tune with nature. Men and dwarves, not so much.


 

offline Wolfslice from Bay Area, CA (United States) on 2022-02-19 10:56 [#02616584]
Points: 3738 Status: Regular



and Arwen got more of the good stuff than anyone
else, if you catch my drift. ;)


 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2022-02-19 11:04 [#02616585]
Points: 30247 Status: Regular



LAZY_TITLE

heres a great article about the class structure of the shire
lol. I think you're generally right though ijonspeches if
there is a class structure to middle earth is pretty much in
the background or not apparent at all, its mostly different
cultures interacting on the same level.


 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2022-02-19 11:08 [#02616586]
Points: 30247 Status: Regular



Having said that there are kings, lords, merchant classes
and peasants within each separate culture like Gondor,
Rohan, even the shire to a certain extent. Perhaps Mordor is
a metaphor for godless communism, with its anarchic social
structure, I don't think so though, I don't think Tolkien
wanted to politicise his world I think its just a depiction
of classical evil. Destruction versus creators


 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2022-02-19 11:16 [#02616587]
Points: 30247 Status: Regular



Yeah the deference Aragorn shows the hobbits is a very good
point, I think he might be unique in his world view in some
respects as he has spent years as a ranger living amongst
the common folk under his Striker alias. Someone like the
Steward of Gondor Denethor was very dismissive of the
hobbits, so it makes me wonder who is more representative. I
suspect its Aragorn as his forefathers are described as very
wise and magnanimous.


 


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