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 (nobody)...and 115 guests Last 5 registered Oplandisks nothingstar N_loop yipe foxtrotromeo Browse members... |
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Do you like Metroid on the NES? I do. What do you think about the idea of a metroid-like game, where you go around exploring and finding items that give you powers to get to new areas... but, the whole map is randomly/procedurally generated, so it's different every time? |
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New levels every time? Sounds shit. |
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Why do you say that? |
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Bad idea, at least when it comes to Metroid and its followers. There's a place for random level generation in gaming (Diablo/Elder Scrolls/Champions of Norrath/Dark Cloud/every dungeon crawler ever etc), but not in Metroid-like games where you find items and solve a series of different puzzles and problems to access new areas. In Metroid's case especially, the level design is the core of the entire experience, a lot of thought and care on the developers' part went into the manual crafting of them, aesthetically and for gameplay purposes. A randomly generated Metroid game would suffer from... randomness, instead of logic and intuition. Level design is an art. Lots of human developers suck at it, so I can't see how a script or equation could know what's fun and what flows well. Unless it was a one in a billion generation. I mean, it would be interesting to see what came out, but ultimately it would feel very artificial instead of organic, like Super Metroid. |
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The idea is always gonna sound appealing. (I agree with Ophecks in the sense that it's not going to fit just any genre and to top that it has to be pretty well thought out. A hell of a lot of work if you wanna make it work and not generate shit every 3 levels (and i'm being kind), otherwise it's just going to follow such basic rules it will end up defeating the whole object.) Bomberman or Bubble Bobble would be far more feasible. |
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I'm very interested in random/procedural elements but I havn't even made one game yet, so will have to do a lot of thinking and experimenting in general. I have lots of fuzzy ideas and concepts by observing the games I like best and analyzing the root of why a particular element is entertaining/fun (to my brain anyway)/trimming off excess. I like gameplay that maximizes concentration and skill and makes you find heuristics that emerge from the chaos. I guess the main function of randomness is to add replay value and make the game fun even to the programmer who knows it inside-out. Even simple random elements, like the slight direction a cacodemon moves at any given moment or when it fires (multiplied by how many other monsters there are, each with their own slight randomness (plus different monsters might randomly fight eachother)) in doom2 builds up over time to make the whole thing feel like a seperate real time experience each replay, even though it's the same exact program and level. Metroid was mostly enemies that moved back and forth in linear paths or with predictable behavior. If some deeper gameplay element was added (say a seperate button controls a shield or something), etc, it might be more fun. I remember in zeda 2 on nes, fighting those knights was simple enough but the simple element of trying to block their sword while simultaneously attacking where their shield wasn't demanded more skill and concentration/making them the most fun enemies in the game (until you realize you can just jump and attack their head repeatedly, making them challengeless again). Metroid was great, but mostly as a sort of eerie experience/quest. The gameplay was sort of a backseat (not very challenging or skill based other than figuring out what to do next) to the feeling of just being on a quest in a neat huge alien world with minimal eerie music and getting interesting new power ups. And since the world/experience is the main fun element, designing it in a cool way beforehand (rather than generating it) mi |
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might be preferable just to make sure its cool. Since gameplay arguably isn't metroids core fun value, it is fun on the first play-through but doesn't have much replay value, and therefore randomnly generated levels might be pointless. For example, with that really old randomly generated game 'rogue' (nethack), you might die/restart 5 times per hour, so you instantly get the benefit of randomly generated levels to have a new/unique experience each time. On the other hand metroid is a really long quest you beat over the course of a week with saves, so replaying it on the next randomly generated map wouldn't be until next week. It depends on how the random generation is implemented though. Actually the sheer size of the levels made it difficult to remember where items/paths/etc were on the next play, so it already has replay in the sense that you'll forget a lot. If I try to envision randomly generated metroid levels... basically I see it hard implemented well, with typical metroid style long verticle corridors with door bubbles that you shoot on both sides. Only now the number of bubble doors would be random and the item you need would be in a random spot, and the horizontal corridors would have random enemies/etc. This basically makes you have to search for the right path each time. One of my least favorite gameplay concepts is 'searching' for anything- like a maze for example, as overcoming it merely requires the tedious, boring time consuming task of trying every possible combination until the right one is found. Metroid remained interesting somehow I think, even though it was maze-like- maybe because most areas felt unique. But there were numerous role playing games I flat out quit when they sent me on maze after boring maze. Like in this one xbox360 game (I think kameo elements of power) there was an awesome tree boss. But the gameplay for this boss was basically FIND the attack combination that works against it (a skill-less chore). And it was badly implemented as there was some nonintuiti |
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nonintuitive way you had to press the up button or something while firing something (making the game input itself feel like an enemy rather than an invisible smooth thing you don't have to think about). But once you found the attack, the boss is no challenge at all every time you play from then on, thus ruining the fun. Gameplay should maybe come from the skill of controlling input well, and being good at finding the right heuristics, and just generally being entertained by things. The ultimate example I've found is 'hell revealed' for doom2. If interested, get zdoom which can play it outside of its original dos environment, then warp (type idclev13) to a good later map like 13 or 18. I hold the arrow (number) keys with right hand and strafe, run, use, and fire with left hand. So that's 8 fingers all being used, truly making it a skill when you get good at it (as opposed to a typical game of 'press button A every once in awhile'/etc. And trying to do map 13 as fast as you can adds an additional gameplay element on top of something that was already frantic and fantastic. 2d shooter games might have great potential for randomly generated enemies and stuff. And might as well make the action happen in all 4 directions asteroids or zelda1 style, rather than only straight ahead. Those games are almost ALWAYS linearly predictable each replay. Also a game like punchout could be cool and more difficult with less predictable stuff. Sorry for the long ass reply. |
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Ta-daa! |
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Such a thoughtful post goes completely unnoticed... Xltronic. |
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that's actually a really good set of posts, w M w. i'm very much into randomly generated content for games. i'll write a worthwhile post about it after i've recorded a few tunes. |
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I hope one of those tunes is a love song for me; something that will take my mind off the fact that gmork is constantly licking my soul from the underworld with his abrasive tongue. |
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I like all these 80's fantasy movie references you're making today. |
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