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Fascinating, but very upsetting.. One example: Sujit Kumar (born October 4, 1973) is a man who was raised as a chicken for several years of his life. A native of Suva, Fiji, Kumar was locked in a chicken coop from the time he was a baby. He received little to no attention during this time and mimicked chickens as a result. On the death of his father he was handed over to his grandfather. At the age of eight Kumar was placed in a home for the elderly. Due to his wild, aggressive behaviour, the staff were unsure how to treat him and confined him for 22 years, tied to his bed for most of it. I nearly got sick reading that last sentence. For more, look up "Feral Children" on wiki, or you can watch this documentary: |
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Thank you so much for this. I've been so interested in it for ages, particularly cos of my degree but I've never got round to finding out about it.x |
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oh my god that's perfect for my autumn depressive mood now |
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i heard you cant teach feral children to speak. its as if you need to learn to talk while you are a kid before you reach a certain age. |
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yes, that's true, although there's no certain cut-off point. if you haven't been exposed to language by around 5 or 6, you won't be able to speak or communicate thoughts properly for the rest of your life. it's just like second language acquisition - this is why it's a good idea to raise a child in a bilingual environment, even if the parents only have a rudimentary understanding of the second language.. if you start learning a language at age 12 or 13 when you go into secondary school, you're not actually "learning" it.. you're teaching yourself to remember it.. whereas if the kid has already been exposed to plenty of it, they'll have a much better grasp of it. look up chomsky's theory of the innateness of language for more. |
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Fascinating, but very upsetting, indeed |
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Hahahah "ICH LIEBE CHOMCHOM" |
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Big ups to the wolves that raised her, that was cool of them. I don't have time to watch this in full right now but those shots of her that open the documentary... did they get them before they rehabilitated her? Bizarre. |
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yes.. her bark is so real and dog-like.. i'd really reccomend you add it to your favourites and watch it some time. it's fucking powerful and bizarre stuff. really, make sure you see it. |
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They were her pet dogs that looked after her. I think those shots were after they've found her but not managed to rehabilitate her at all at that stage. |
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That film was really amazing.. It was so eye-opening seeing real films and real people rather than just photographs and re-enactments. |
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that's a bit dated. adults can learn to use a second language as well as children. i won't deny it can't be harder, but saying adults can only learn a second language by 'remembering' is nonsense. there are enough examples of peoples who start a job in another country and who, after a couple of years, start to 'think' in their second language. |
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o god...typing peoples in a thread by redrum about language....if there's is something you shouldn't do THIS IS IT pray for me... |
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you didn't get it. you can in fact learn a language when you already know one. so of course an adult may learn another language and speak it fluently (although i'm not sure if he actually can "think" that way too but that's unimportant now) but there is nearly no chance to learn someone a language if he has never spoken before. that's two different things |
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well yeah, in the case of feral children. but redrum used it in the context of normal children and why it would be better to raise them in a bilingual environment. |
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i don't really like documentaries like these because you can never tell how much they are bullshitting you. i mean - okay i can imagine that this girl crouching and barfing may be a recording of her BEFORE she got to the therapy, but it just might be her after the therapy acting to give that documentary a bit more drama. has been made so often before |
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just goes to show that none of human social behaviour is made by our biology. |
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although i'm not sure if he actually can "think" that way too but that's unimportant now when someone learns something new in the context of his second language, he'll have a tendency to start to think in his second language aboout the new subject. it happened to a couple of foreign students. even moreso to people who were forced to leave the country they were born in and start to do a study in their new country. a friend of mine told me he could switch into different thinking modes (language). and mostly in the case of things he'd studied, he's newer experiences, were in his second language. he moved from croatia to holland when he was 16. |
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yeah, i didn't express it very well, ok, here's what i meant: the neural processes used by a child when learning language are different those used by an adult when learning a language as an adult. the same goes for the neural processes that come into play in the usage of language. |
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I don't agree that there's no chance of learning and speaking a language fluently after the initial language stages early in life, but I think it becomes exponentially harder to learn and have a new language become "natural" to you. There's definately something to be said with the sort of blank slate combined with the specific stage when children usually learn language that makes it much easier. I don't really have any first-hand experience with living in an environment like a foreign county, where you have to learn the language, but it seems like even then it would be much, much harder to learn a language. I guess you'd have general linguistic knowledge to help you learn at this stage, but no more impressionability like in childhood. Although it makes sense that it's even harder for someone who was raised ferally to learn. They have no linguistic knowledge whatsoever and are past the "natural" language stage. I haven't watched the video yet, but I have a feeling I'll be surprised at how they "rehailitate" this person. |
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but is it learning or memorising? Many of the texts in my curriculum are in english, and when I read something there, I tend to remember the english words so I sometimes say the english word when I'm trying to explain it to someone and then there's a "..oh.. eh [norwegian word]." However, I've known english almost all my life, so I don't think I have just memorised the language and its rules, but I think what redrum was saying was that while you may very well somehow understand and speak a language after growing up, it may not be in the same way as how your primary languages are learnt, but rather be more of a form of memorising..? The difference in this when it comes to language may, however, be a simply formal one (at some brain state level), as you, to be a competent language user have to actually have learnt it and not just memorised it; owning a dictionary doesn't qualify you to be a competent language user, and if you've merely memorised the language, that's like having the dictionary. One of the things that can demonstrate this is how immigrants usually have the biggest trouble understanding metaphors (even "dead" ones), sarcasm, irony, and other ways in which a competent language user is using his language. |
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he beated me 2 itz |
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"Sujit Kumar (born October 4, 1973) is a man who was raised as a chicken for several years of his life." Apparently, he liked the sound of BOC though. BOC BOC BOC. |
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You should be ashamed of yourself. you horrific excuse of a person. |
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BOC? :( |
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get out |
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But seriously, I watched the CH4 documentary (and its follow up) last year, and it was engrossing as it was surreal. The girl who was raised by dogs made pretty incredible progress by the time the second documentary was filmed, but the "reunion" with her father was pretty difficult viewing. He should have been ashamed of himself. |
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I know, that fucking cunt.. that distance between them was so powerful... I don't understand, the girl whose mother had cateracts.. whose choice was it to let her go back to live with her? (Ps am I using "whose" right in this context? I'm sure it's not who's..) |
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boc boc boc BOC! |
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agreed. the 'machinery' (loose analogy) for language develops at a young age. i won't deny that. but i do think that once this machinery is properly installed it's flexible enough to learn other languages. there are people who are fluent in a lot of languages (10 or more). the so-called talents (using optimal machinery). and surely, it's not the case that they've learned all of them in their youth. of course, odds are they were brought up bi- or more lingual. which adds points to your case. and about the neural processes. well yeah, different areas will be used (the same areas might even be used as well), but what conclusions can be drawn from that? analysing neural processes is like running on ice. if there is one area where it's very easy to draw wrong conclusions, this is it. the conclusions drawn in this scientific areas are far from facts. although nowadays a lot can be measured, the conclusions are still not much better than subjective interpretations. but anyways, i probably make it appear as if were on opposites sides of a coin. where in reality we aren't. |
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fuck. while writing posts like this threads can actually evolve into entirely different creatures... fuck2. and i make it sound like it's a new experience too...o god. this is NOT my thread |
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yeah, whose. |
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