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It's pretty shitty, but it's not even down to the colour of skin here (not that that makes it any better). I'm subjected to racism almost daily where I work (in England) simply because I'm Welsh, in spite of the fact that I don't look any different and only talk with a very slight Welsh accent. The reasonably good-humoured ribbing, calling me "sheep shagger" and "taff", particularly when it's from people I like, who're just having a laugh is fine. What does annoy me is what you described and is far harder to actually pin down and quantify, but primarily; That people seem absolutely staggered by my intellect, purely because I'm Welsh and they think all Welsh people are inherently stupid. The fact I can string two words together and excel academically makes them view me as some sort of abberation. What is quite sad about this is that it's actually understandable how they've come to this point of view, as a lot of our welsh clients (and the other two Welsh members of staff) here are pretty thick. So whilst it's annoying, I can certainly see why they feel that way. If someone was actually being really nasty with name calling etc., I'd have serious words with them and if that didn't stop them, I'd speak to the bosses about it. As others have said, racism is such a taboo subject these days, particularly in the UK that the perpetrator would get a disproportianately severe bollocking and it'd almost certainly stop immediately. What is a lot harder to combat is this more common/annoying issue of being suprised by my intelligence. I've also encountered the same sort of non-acceptance from my own race; People have criticisied me for "sounding English" and "forgetting my roots" because I work in England. |
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everybody is a racist, the one a bit more that the other, everybody has preconceptions and that has a lot to do with racism....... |
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by accident or by habit? |
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on purpose |
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boarders change so do people and cultures, war is nature, killing is nature, so is racism, fear what you don't know. you can't just say native americans would go harrasing people if there were more of them, how do you know. mouthing off? so the aboriginal community can say racist things to express their ideas, and it doesn't seem all that racist, because some white polititicans before 1967 did not give them rights? i dont care what colour skin you have, its all a feud over confussing cultures. why do aboriginals blame me(as white) for their troubles in history, i'm from a european family who came here in 1951, i wasn't born until 30 years later, but i'm still classified as one of those gold digger convicts. i admit australia is...fucked, lying politians and all, but you just say that because i have pale skin, i'm the bad guy, that i'm to blame. anyway fuck this thread its making me more rasict. |
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"..war is nature, killing is nature, so is racism..." wtf... |
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I can certainly see how people complaining excessively about racism can prolong it unnecessarily. Nothing enrages quite so much as people banging on about all the shitty things "white people" have done in history, as though I somehow had anything to do with what went on in other countries decades before I was born. What's particulary irritating is that some people don't think I should be allowed to feel annoyed about this, because I'm on the "winning side"/in the more enviable position, I'm supposed to just take it with good grace apologise on behalf of people I've never met. Fuck that. |
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what isn't nature by your definition? |
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maybe peace, living and equality...? LOL |
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so, in conclusion: racism sucks and we hope it gets better. |
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racism is for pussies if you ask me |
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we should be racist against racist people |
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well this was enlightening |
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i have no idea if racism is actually that widespread in britain (all this recent shit about the BNP is worrying though) most people i know throw racist words around, but not seriously meaning it. one time i was in gloster Mcdonalds and this group of about ten black kids came in, shouting and pushing eachother around, eventually having a full-blown fight in the queue. my mate just turned around to me and said "Fucking niggers!" - because what they were doing fitted his black-chav stereotype - but hes not actually racist. i dont mind the words, as long as they arent used in an offensive way. if i went to china and someone called me a round-eye i wouldnt be bothered. i would find it funny myself. its only when its attached to negative stereotypes |
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nice ! ! |
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you'd find it funny to be called round eye, but would you find it funny if no one would rent you an apartment, or you couldn't hail a cab if you needed it, or if you had difficulty getting a decent job? most people keep the words to themselves, and they don't talk openly about their motives with the people against whom they're directing their racism. fun fact: i had my life threatened three times irl, and only once because of my race. a cab driver in a bus station threatened me for what my "forefathers" had done to his "forefathers", it seems funny in retrospect. i was wearing tennis shorts and a pink shirt in a chicago bus station at 5am. i suppose i had it coming to me... |
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no i wouldnt find it funny! its just that some people find the words alone offensive - people actually treating people in a racist way is different. most of the people i know (maybe its just something within my group of friends) will call eachother racist names and mean nothing serious by it. |
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true, words are words, and the context makes a difference. i forgot, i was accused of being racist once also. it's true also that sometimes individuals attempt to use accusations of racism to conceal their incompetence or lack of effort. |
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words are words, that much is true, but are words harmless? |
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would cygnus be offended by a song entitled "nigger killer"? if so.. then there might've been some point to the furory around the time when ice-t's "cop killer" was released.. it's worth bearing in mind.. |
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ps i think you should just cheer up and listen to The Frogs' album "Racially yours", with its classic tracks such as "darkmeat 4 sale", "now you know you're black" and "2 blacks don't make a white". wonderful stuff. . |
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of course they are harmless. an individual is responsible for how they react to words. however, most people react reflexively, and can't control their emotional responses. so we owe each other the respect of withholding words that could be perceived as hurtful. |
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though sometimes it not what you say but the way that you say it. i've known some people that could make just about any word seem menacing... |
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if words are harmless how do you explain the force words seem to contain? if I ask you a question, you answer (you just did). if I (or rather, someone you care about) insult you, you feel hurt. if a police officer tells you to vacate the area, you do just that.. if words are harmless why is it against the law to reveal certain words that, placed in the order they are placed in, reveal government secrets? revealing is in itself an act. of course, the word standing on its own, separated from the world has no force, but a word standing on its own is nothing more than a noise or a few lines, in fact it isn't even a word so you can't have a word standing on its own; words are always in context and anyone who hears the words and know the language the words are spoken in immediately grasp some sort of meaning in the words. if words are harmless how the fuck can they have such an impact on people? |
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worrds arren't harrmless they'rre verry verry hurrtful. but then they'rre just a way of communicating a thought. it's not what is being said it's the fact that people think this stuff about you that hurrts. |
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well, you wouldn't be able to know what people thought about you without words, would you? an analogy would be calling words the hands of your mind, but that just sounds silly... |
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that's not what i mean |
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Racist jokes are fucking funny, especially jew jokes. |
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no, I get what you mean, but I was trying to get at that what is being said implies what is meant and it is saying it that conveys the meaning in such a way that someone may be hurt.. saying something is an action, and an action has a reaction. |
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yet you forget that it is the individual that chooses to respond to the word. haven't you ever ignored anyone? words have that force because people have accepted as a fundamental assumption that they must respond to words in particular ways. are you offended by the word "fuck"? of course you're aware that many people are *deeply* offended by that word. now tell me, where is the force of that word? who lends the force to the word? the force is in the mind of the person who chose to react. i acknowledge that most people react reflexively, present company included at times. but not at the word "fuck." |
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do you choose to respond to the word or do you choose what your response to the word will be? there's a difference there and when you ignore someone, that's a response to the word, not something you do before the word has made an impact on you; you can't choose to simply percieve a noise or something when someone is talking to you in a language you understand, but you can choose what action you will perform, for instance staring blankly out in front of you. also, I'd like to see you choose to not become hurt if your girlfriend tells you she hates you. |
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maybe i wasn't clear enough, but i meant that i too would react reflexively in some cases. there's a rather large can of worms we're looking at here and frankly i don't have the time to sort through them with you. needless to say i wouldn't be happy if my wife sincerely communicated this to me, but there's a much bigger issue lurking behind her communication. some individuals, given this communication, might laugh, assuming it's a joke. some individuals, aware of anger management issues, might dismiss it as unintended or exaggerated. others, aware of mental health problems, might reach for a phone to call for help. if you want to truly understand why someone would be upset by that communication you have to understand why anyone cares about what anyone else thinks, and you have to understand why people fear condemnation. anyway, i hope i'm getting across where i'm coming from, i'm officially out of time. i'm not really happy with what i've written, there are too many unexplored angles, but thanks for a thought provoking exchange... |
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I predict major change here on the board from now on. |
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well.. what I was trying to get at is the silly attitude that words are "just" words.. it seems like one of those sentences that people would use to comfort themselves or something while it entails something no-one can really mean if they think things through.. words are not "just" words in the sense that they don't make a difference or don't hurt or stuff like that.. they are words in the sense that they convey meaning and they can hurt, make a difference and you can perform lots of actions with them. as I said with the silly analogy: arms of the mind; arms aren't "just" arms in the sense that they're harmless: they can make a difference and hurt and you can perform lots of actions with them... |
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...so hit me with music! |
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my point is that you can change your mind. words are tools to transmit ideas, and you can change how you feel about those ideas. you're reacting to ideas, and beliefs, not the words. you can reject an idea. you can change how you feel, and you are not powerless in the face of words. this is why i say words are harmless. i'm not saying it's always easy to change your mind, because you've been trained to react instantly to words and ideas. but i think it's in everyone's best interests to resist reacting reflexively to words and ideas. |
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My reactions to reading your words are "bewilderment" and a sense that I have "really wasted my time". |
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"reflexively" oh dear |
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you made the choice, dipshit, now live with it. |
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and yet most importantly, you have nothing productive to say whatsoever. when was the last time you actually had an idea that wasn't a sad put-down of someone you don't even know? |
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Words like violence Break the silence Come crashing in Into my little world Painful to me Pierce right through me Can’t you understand Oh my little girl |
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if you were reacting to the ideas, then how do you account for misunderstandings? what are you reacting to then? certainly you're not reacting to the initial idea, as you haven't percieved it, but you're still reacting to something and while it is something within your own mind (your interpretation of the words), you're not reacting to that something in your own mind; you're reacting to what you thought was being said, the words that were being uttered. |
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but i think it's in everyone's best interests to resist reacting reflexively to words and ideas. you can't do that.. that would mean consciously choosing to hear words in languages you know as noise, which is.. well, it's just impossible unless you suffer heavy braindamage or something... |
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It only really effects me when people get my nationality (Columbian) wrong. I get indian, Mexican, sometimes Chinese. But then again I'm mixed, so the Canadian side of me laughs and snorts like an idiot makes slanty eyes with my fingers... |
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and.. not being powerless when faced with something is not the same as it being harmless or powerless when it comes to you; you have the power to fight, but that you have to fight, that you have to decide otherwise means it has already made an impact and whether you like it or not, words force you into deciding to do something whether this something is doing nothing. |
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misunderstandings? you mean when you create in your own mind an idea that you believe has just been communicated to you? you're not reacting to the words, whether you received them clearly or not. one individual experiences an idea in their mind. transparently, without their active awareness, they use words to communicate this idea to another. the other hears the words, processes them transparently, without active awareness, and experiences an idea. usually, this idea is a reasonable match to the original. sometimes it isn't. this is greatly simplified, again, out of necessity. |
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so you are unfamiliar with this discipline, fair enough. here's an example from american military training. part of an enlisted man's training included precise verbal abuse from their superior. the superior would bait the enlisted man with insults to train the individual to not react reflexively to those insults. this was necessary because combat is very stressful and if enlisted men are not disciplined to do this, they will begin to attack each other. there are other methods and means to accomplish this as well. |
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i just don't think that makes sense. words don't force you to do anything. |
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I guess that cab driver in Chicago realised he'd cause far greater misery on a grander scale by letting you live. |
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