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ok, I need a new cable.. approx 3m.. for some reason, 3m doesn't seem to exist with "consumer brands" (like monster cable); they only have 2,4 and 4m and such.. however, I found a cable, but it seems to be not as well shielded as the monster cables (at approximately the same price, though), but the guy in the store said that I could add additional shielding to the cable by wrapping it in aluminum foil.. however, hifi stores salespersons are often not the best sources of information for stuff like this, so I need someone who actually knows electronics and stuff like this, and I'm hoping there are some here who could tell me if the clerk knew his shit of if we was just full of said shit... the way I see it the foil could either help the shielding or it could amplify the disturbing signals from shit around the cable, but what do I know? |
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who are the tech people round here so I know when to bump, btw? dave_g has some skillz, right? |
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Dave tends to lurk and only log in to post in things like this. |
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Hmmmm. I don't know. That sounds kind of hair brained to me. It might work. But why not just buy cheap cable and wrap it in a shitload of aluminum foil then? (probly because people don't want a bunch of wires wrapped in aluminum lying around their pad, because it looks awfull) |
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for 3m if it's a good cable forget about additional shielding if it's a shit cable, don't buy it and buy a good cable seriously =) |
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I am the kind of person who would rather have that extra meter, because then if I move things around I might need it (I have many hundreds of dollars in cables that always get moved around and rearranged. The most annoying thing is having to deal with cables that were the right size, then proved to be too short when you change your settup) |
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yeah, that's what I thought.. it just sounds silly that you can shield cables by just adding aluminum foil (though, if you look inside cables, there is quite often a layer of aluminum (or similar) foil in there)... e-man: yeah, I really just want to get a good(ish.. monster will do) cable from the start, but when the 2,4 isn't enough and the 4 is so expensive just to have an extra 1m adding "possibility of interference" and shit.. well.. if it would work to have a 3m cable with just slightly less shielding and then putting aluminum foil around it would make it just a little bit better and equal to a 3m monster, it would definately be worth it having a foil-clad wire hiding behind the television... |
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oh, yeah, I know.. the cable I'm currently using for this 3m stretch is two thin ~1,5m cables connected at the middle (and it thus has an exposed area where they meet even) because it hasn't been the most critical part of my setup (turntable to computer.. I haven't had any real use for it as of yet.. never had to record anything from the turntable except a few scratches, and with the scratches it didn't really matter if there was a bit of noise.. however, a need for recording higher quality sound has arisen), but I'm pretty sure I'm not going to change this setup for a while and if I do, I can just get a 4m cable 'cause I'd probably find a use for the 3m anyway... |
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oh, btw.. if you make music, I've used the exposed cable for an interesting effect once.. the cable runs behind my amplifier.. when the amplifier is on the only "extra noise" it picks up is there normal electricity hum/static-ish sound, but if I turn the amp off, it seems like sound going through the cables to the amp suddenly doesn't have anywhere to go, and is.. well, I don't know any tech terms, but it seems like it "piles up" inside the cables and then ejaculates out through them.. this residue is then picked up by the cable (most likely the exposed part) as a weird crackle-distorted version of the signal you're sending.. so I made a song, played it back with the amp off while recording from the cable and added the distortion as an effect.. I haven't finished the song, so it's not uploaded, but I'll get around to it after I finish the song I started after it and then people can hear... |
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do you mean a balanced cable, or a shielded cable? my shitty cables pick up all sorts of crap, like the boiler turning on and off for instance. my room's above the kitchen and if i have my bass or guitar plugged in, i can pick up the buzz from the kitchen strip light. it sounds cool when it turns on, i may have to record it. |
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I'm just thinking of a regular phono <-> phono stereo (unbalanced) cable which is somewhat shielded. |
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well, using balanced cables (phono <-> phone) would reduce signal noise, picked up by the wires. |
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oh, wait I meant the entire cable was unbalanced.. it still consists of two balanced cables.. it's not a jack <-> jack. and I'm not going to use just one 'cause I need stereo. |
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i'm sorry, i'm being very dumb [as you can tell by my "phono <-> phone"], balanced cables are jack-2-jack, not phono-2-phono. |
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you problems don't come the cables you're using, it comes from a poor electrical instalation:) you can solve it buying electrical multi-plug with filter and protection against power burst mastah: if you turntable is grounded, the shielding is less important just put the cable away from main power cables, and if you have to cross the two, cross them at a 90° angle |
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well, as in any audio setup, the cable runs through an area with tons of other cables all tangled up into something which may become sentient at any given time, so... shielding is important. |
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Dude, have you though of buying studio cables or guitarist cables? Those will be shielded to prevent a bomb, and for what you are getting you will be paying half as much as those moster cables and such. They charge way too much for professional grade consumer goods. Just get professional grade professional goods! |
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the problem with those cables (the normal "audio gear" ones, at least.. like the ones for guitar -> amp, for instance) is that they are jack <-> jack, not phono <-> phono, and while the soundcard uses large jacks, the dj mixer uses phono (in other words, I use phono <-> phono with phono -> jack converters on one side.. I've never come across jack -> phono converters, and with studio cables it doesn't really get less expensive (they're sold in singles, not with two paired cables, so I need 2x) nor higher quality (they aren't gold plated)... |
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Ok look. Cables are really very important. Don't save money on them, because good cables really do make a difference. Ah right ok. Ignore bloke in shop. He works a low paid job for a reason.... If you add additional grounds, you will likely introduce ground loops, where small voltages in the grounds circulate. Since the ground is not 0v, as it varies this voltage is imposed onto the signal (by changing the reference voltage you affect the signal voltage). This causes the hiss sound you can hear. You could of course wrap it with foil and connect it to only one grounded end, but I have experimented with this, and kitchen roll type alu foil is rubbish. I've used copper foil at work with RF and that is better but I doubt you have easy access to this. I suggest getting a decent 3 metre cable. I have a nice one made by JVC. Gold connectors, it's wonderful, not too pricey either. Balanced leads have 3 wires. Ground, hot and cold. Hot and cold both carry the signal, but one is phase inverted to the other, so any voltage spikes are cancelled out when the signals are recombined. (one is inverted and the spike is inverted, thus cancelling when combined,whereas the signals when combined add) An unbalanced stereo lead will have 3 wires, Left, Right, Ground. A balanced stereo lead will have 2x 3 wires, Left (hot cold ground), Right(hot cold ground). Anyway, phono has only 2 wires, so must be unbalanced. :) And stereo phone is 2x2 wires,etc My advice is that you get a decent chunky 3m phono cable and use 2x phono to mono jack adapters at the sound card end. With a decent cable you shouldn't notice any problems. Keep away from mains leads if possible and cross them at 90 degrees to stop inductive pickup. Run the mixer output loud(ish) and reduce the volume on the soundcard input to increase the signal to noise ratio. (don't overdrive the input or else you will get distortion). My setup is almost all unbalanced (over 90%) and it's not a problem. Just make sure you use decent cables and use c |
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stupid pseudo-counter.. Just make sure you use decent cables and use correct lenghts, no unecessary joins and things which will seriously degrade grounding. Please note grounding refers to shield generally. The cables are co-axial, with ground as the outer, then insulation then the signal carrying wire(s) in the centre. I would do an ASCII diagram, but the patented xlt cock it up system would 'remix' it. Anyway, hope that kinda helps. Basically spend some money :( Don't spend silly amounts though. Decent/good consumer grade should suffice. |
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don't listen to them. Go for the rustic look. Wrap the cheap cable in tin foil and connect it to the radiator with a chain made of paper-clips. |
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ah, thanks! just the confirmation I needed that I should never trust hi-fi store employees on a single thing they say. I know cables are important (though I'm not very rich, so monster-ish price class/quality is what I'm going for), and I've actually had to prove how cable quality affects sound to a guy who refused to believe it mattered (he was amazed when he heard that thinner cables don't transmit as many details in the sound.. heh), and basically all the other cables than the turntable-soundcard one are well-shielded and give good sound, but I've never had any use for a 3m before... heh, everything is crossed at all angles.. best pic I could get.. only have a mobile phone thingie... |
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haha, obviously that should follow up to dave. |
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Here is a good way to test how bad the signals are disturbing in your speaker cables. Turn your amp off and put your ear to the speaker. All you will hear is the distortion in the cable without any of the music (since the amp is turned off!) AMAZING! |
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You know, I get almost all of my studio cables in well reinforced pairs. Standard being double 1/4" mono to mono, but you can also get double 1/4" mono to rca. Just about any sizes. Go to the recording, dj or mixer section of your local music equipment store. Don't go to the keyboards section. They sell total ass. |
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you don't have to worry about audio cable crossing or being near each other, it's just the power cable that has to be as far away as possible from the audio cable and when i say cables aren't that important, off course you need to have good cables, but if you take care of your signal path, ground loops, etc.. cables won't affect much imo it's silly to pay for monster cables if you have consummer type equipment (which is 90% of the gear bedroom producer/dj use) or if you use converters like those phono->jack i see in the photo, because the benefit of the cable is completly lost elsewhere it's like buying silver cables when everything is done with copper everywhere else, makes no sense :) |
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(You can get signal bleeding from poorly insulated cables that are running alongside eachother) But your right, its the electrical cables that are really important to not cross with audio cables. This is my jungle of cables. I probly have between 800 - 1000 feet of cables all told, and carefull consideration is put towards making sure that audio cables do not cross power cables at any point. There is only one point where the power and audio meet, and they are at 90' angles, so as to minimize any electrical interference in the signal path. If I were to make any changes or move things around, it takes at least 4 hours to rearrange everything. |
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wait, what? I know a bit about cables, man I just didn't know if this extra insulation bullshit would work, and what you're saying is silly first of all, monster cables are consumer type cables, so if you have consumer type equipment, it's perfectly reasonable, and the converters don't account for much signal loss, I'll tell you that.. if they're gold plated and a tight fit next to nothing goes away in the transfer. |
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from the crappy cellphone-pic it seems like you have the same type of monstercable that I once had. It lasted me about 3 years before it started humming just as bad as my mother did when I was a kid. don't know if it was due to me not treating it good enough, but it kept me from buying more of that brand. clas ohlson ones were good enough for me until I bought a new soundcard where I couldn't use them any more. I kept them as far away from any electrical cables so that might have helped a bit. |
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I've had these for quite some time, and they still work fine, must've been use you're aware that thinner cables don't transmit as rich and detailed sound too, right? |
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you lose 5ohms of impedence per metre of cable intresting eh |
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oh I have scrapped the clas ohlsons now. I bought some good ones when I got a new soundcard. couldn't use the minijack to rcas anymore |
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well, what i mean is that monster cables, for the price you pay, you better be sure everything in your signal chain is ultra clean or else you could do with cable half the price at least and never hear a change many pro studios make their cables themselves with good wire and good plugs, they don't need special expensive technology because most of the time you can't hear a difference many experiments have been made showing the total lack of perceived difference between cables costing 100$ and cables costing 10$ in normal listening conditions what do you have in your signal chain? i'm not here to bother you btw, just curious, and i saw so much people buying expensive cables and not take care of the rest i am now maybe a bit quick in judging :) |
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That mess of cables looks good. Infact it is better than taxi's setup with them all running alongside one another in close proximity. Running them all along next to each other will cause pickup and crosstalk between the cables. I work with high frequency RF/microwave frequencies with my job, and critical signal cables are generally not cable tied together to minimise crosstalk. Of course audio is not half as bad for radiating as high frequency stuff, but even so, might as well do it the messy way and eliminate any problems before they occur. If you can do it the neater way and there are no problems then of course you could do it that way too. Generally a mixture between very neat and total mess seems to work well for a mix of signal purity and ease of use/aesthetics. |
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If you can figure out a way to run aproximately 600 to 1000 feet of cables without having them run along the floor in a fashion that won't cause me to have them occupying every single square inch of the room that they are in, then let me know... |
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oh, yeah, I know the stuff I have is just about equal to or better than the cables in sound quality, and if I use the thinner cables and A/B them with the monster ones from the same source, I definately hear a difference.. the thin ones lack lots of treble and generally add rumbling plus distorted versions of signals from other sources (like the tv, which is directly to the right of what you see in the pic (which is an electribe drum synth thingie (<3 Hanal!) and the break-out box part of an e-mu 1820 which are sitting on the top of one of my speakers (both the speakers and the e-mu are well shielded too actually.. the speakers are meant to be close to tvs and shit so they don't "leak" magnetism and noise so that they don't disturb the image))) while the monster cable has no excess noise (I have to go to -5db to even hear the white noise-ish thing, but then it could just as well be another source leaking into the amp). the stuff not mentioned already that's also hooked up are a roland xp-30 digital synth, a 1210 going through a vestax pmc-05 proIII, some crazy midi wiring and a dvd player going in somewhere if I need it. but.. what pro studios only consider normal listening conditions? a chain isn't stronger than its weakest link, and if someone has a high-end listening setup, the studio shouldn't just go "ah, we'll just use this scrap metal and create a wire," so I'm guessing that when they create their own cables, they know what they're doing and do it properly... signal loss at the source is the last thing you want... dave: so there's no ultra large spehrical magnetic field being generated from, like, a ball of cables crossed in all directions? I'd imagine it'd somehow maybe act like an electromagnet where you curl the wire up and down someting and whatever.. anyway, you know your shit, so I'll take your word for it... |
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all i'm saying is that maybe there is a middle ground between shit cables picking hum and losing trebles, and monster cables which are very expensive but if you are happy with them it's cool :) |
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not really, no.. there is shit and the next step is monster if you go to regular music stores.. others may have a larger leap with shit and then super high-end are the next step... If I had enough money, I would get some of those super high end things like nordost or something... |
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