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I was listening to the radio when the man arrested was interviewed as was someone from whatever this article 8 thing is. Sorry if that makes me sound dumb but i didnt really feel like looking into it. Anyways does anyone else feel that you really shouldnt be teaching young kids this? Shouldnt they be playing with blocks and making friends and learning how to read? Why try to teach them to accept alternative families? They should be learning math. Stuff like this makes me sad. Education > Tolerence Let the adults discuss these issues not 6 year olds >:( |
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I mean at least wait until they are old enough to make logical thought (14-17) This comes across like they are trying to condition children |
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weird. my gut feeling tells me it's wrong, and I'll go by it. |
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adults mostly suck, they never smile or enjoy life kids ruleZ |
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I whole heartedly agree with that. Kids have fun playing with rocks and adults flush our society down the tubes |
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do you think kids "see" more meaning in things? simply because it, to them, is meaningful to play with rocks and stuff? |
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Hmmm. All this talk of "promoting" homosexuality pisses me off, all that seems to have "promoted" is that same-sex families exist and are something to be accepted. I can see their point over tolerance for their beliefs too, but at the same time i can't fucking stand that One Nation Under A Fag-Hating God crap. Brainwashing their kid into believing gays will burn in hell, to me that's a fuck of a lot worse than brainwashing him into tolerating others. No idea why the fellow was arrested though, apart from for causing a stink. Which is probably exactly what he wanted. |
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No my friend... its brainwashing the children to not think about these issues and force them to accept this as a normal part of everyday life. Children dont need to be exposed to such things at a young age. What happened to free thinking. Why cant they just let us think what we want? Why force tolerence down our throats. I am a Christian. If homosexuals want to live that lifestyle then fine. We were given freewill were we not? But dont you dare use children as leverage in this. It the same as PETA passing out handouts to children that read "your mommy is a murder" if you ate meat/wore fur Leave the kids alone |
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"One Nation Under A Fag-Hating God crap" The thing that is starting to get to me is more and more they are changing our society. This man has done nothing wrong and surely i wouldnt want my child to think about these issues. And if they came up i as a parent should address them not some fairy tale author and or teacher. That is the absolute right as a parent that you have. Afterall its your own flesh and blood. But they had this man arrested and now he is barred from all schools in the county/town/whatever. Thats crap and anyone with common sense can see that. Changing the marrage amendment because of this crap? Whats going on in society? more and more we have to accept everything. Dont we have a right to speak our voice if we disagree? (that is the point i am getting to...) Sure you can speak your voice as long as you are not Christian. More and more we are losing basic rights due to stuff of this nature and it sickens me. You have to be tolerent of everyone in this country but the minute a Christian politely asks to be informed of certain things BAM ARRESTED. It happens all the time. What we dont have rights anymore? I am not saying anything is right or wrong as opposed to this case aside from the fact that they are expoliting children and people are losing basic rights. "We have in Massachusetts a parental notification statute specifically in matters related to human sexuality. If a parent wants to be informed of what is being taught in a classroom and wants to have their child withdrawn from the classroom for that portion of the class dealing with human sexuality, that parent has the right." (Thurs., April 28) -Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney- |
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I'm not sure what's wrong with accepting that homosexuality is normal? I have no problem with you as a Christian, man, but some of the hateful bigotry that the fundamentalist right comes out with is just sickening to me. The people in this article are trying to "brainwash" their kid every bit as much as the school, and not in a positive way. If, um, you know, it can ever be positive. It's forcing intolerance down his throat. IMHO and all that shit, i really don't mean you any offence brian, but this stuff does make me a bit angry. Teaching kids that gayz iz rong can only lead to hate, surely. |
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"I'm not sure what's wrong with accepting that homosexuality is normal?" well, first off, it isn't normal. normal is heterosexuality. homosexuality is deviance no matter how you look at it. |
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yeah, the problem is that, vp, you and i don't know the details of why he was arrested. the article says "tresspassing", which is much different than "objecting" to something. do you really think this guy wasn't causing a bunch of trouble and he was singled out because of his beliefs? it's very unlikely. the bottom line is that this is an issue that should be left up to the local communities and NOT the federal government and especially not people like o'reilly. |
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Wait wait wait. "They" are changing our society? In what way? I mean, it looks kind of like you're blaming gays for your perceived loss of free speech. Number one, i don't think the guy should have been arrested at all, despite disagreeing quite violently with his opinions. You can't just throw someone in jail to shut them up. Well you can, but that's a whole other can of worms. Number two, i can see your point with the marriage ceremony thing. It's a sacred Christian ceremony to some people, and that should be respected, my beef is more with the legal strife that same-sex couples have to go through in related matters. Number three, and this is where i'm probably going to look fucking foolish... do you really think the Christian viewpoint is sidelined in America? Look at the current administration and their policies on same-sex adoption, abortion etc. "Moral values" was the number one election issue, if i remember the polls rightly. The O'Reillys of the Free World command vast audiences. The Christian right are a large part of why Bush is in power in the first place. Surely that counts for something? Do you feel like all the legislation is going counter to this? Man, I can feel this thread getting big and flamey, sorry if that's my fault. :( |
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wrong. it's normal that there is a minority of homosexuals in the world. it's natural and it isn't necessarily a lifestyle. homosexuality occurs naturally in other animals besides humans. |
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I believe that the natural state of humans is to be heterosexual, and that other animals can become homosexual doesn't really matter.. exactly because they are animals, and not humans. |
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My point is that children shouldnt even have to talk or think about this issue. They are children. This is conditioning. It is teaching one side of things. If parents think that this is ok for their children then that is their call. This man's rights were violated plain and simple. He has the right to know and the right to remove his child. I mean on offense either with my opinions but i am very upset about this. As i said before this is for adults to discuss and doesnt need to be in a K-5 enviroment. That said i want to address the other statement if you dont mind. " I'm not sure what's wrong with accepting that homosexuality is normal? " I view it as not. and i might as well explain my view before we go any further. Wheather you believe in evolution or creationism you can see that there is going to be a problem normally continuing society if everyone was homosexual. Thats not how humans were created. We were created two seperate genres. male and female and they were built to reproduce wuth each other. Men cannot impregnate men. I am sure you see what i mean on this most basic level. When you look at that in that light then you see that it is not normal. But in society they would take that last sentence as Me saying that gay people are not normal. Which could be compaired to a hate crime. I should be allowed to have my opinions if i am not threatening anyone or causing harm. i dont know i dont like my society overall. but i do love my family and friends! |
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I think you are a little too threatened by this. I agree that it's a parent's right (and duty) to teach their kids about these kinds of things, when (or if) they want to. But it's not like they are trying to recruit people to homosexuality. I would think that there's getting to be a larger number of adopted children with homosexual guardians, and addressing homosexuality in school is a way to combat the prejudice that these kids would feel. I'm not saying that it's right or wrong for kids to be adopted into these families, or that it's the school's role to point out and teach about every single abnormal aspect in a child's life so that a child won't be ostracized. I just think that a good aspect of this sort of teaching is that it sheds a bit of light on something that would normally be not understood. If the kids have 'alternative families' at least explained to them they would be less likely to bully kids because they find out that they have same-sex guardians. A similar example/'problem' would be if Muslim students attended a largely Christian school, donned in those gown-things. It's in kid's nature to make fun of what's different, so it would probably be wise for the school to teach the students to be tolerant of other's religion. It doesn't mean that the teachers want the students to become Muslim, it just means that they are teaching them it is wrong to tease them for it. A parent can tell their kid it's wrong to tease Muslim kids, but the kid will still get into trouble because the consensus is that it is wrong. The kids can't change the fact that their parents are Muslims, and 'alternative family' kids can't change the fact that their guardians are gay. Teachers should at least teach children to be respectful of others who are different, but doing so requires them to explain what those differences actually are. I don't know if it should be addressed so early, but it should be some time. |
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your belief runs contrary to modern scientific evidence, which is nothing new for you. maybe there's a metaphysical flying creature that makes people gay as well. |
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well.. I don't know about not having to think about it, but.. I don't know if they can (not in todays society anyway)... where's that drawing where kids see seven dolphins and grown ups see a couple having sex? my point, I guess, is that if they don't even know about heterosexual stuff, why should they learn about homosexual stuff? |
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I don't really care about modern scientific evidence. everyone else has as large a chance as me of being wrong, so I stick to my beliefs. |
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"I don't know if it should be addressed so early, but it should be some time. " As i said why not age 14-17? You are able to develop a thoughtprocess and think for yourself enough where parents leave you home alone, you can feed yourself, you can (in some places) legally start working etc etc.. Threatened? i dont know about that but i am sick of seeing people passing information on to children of a nature like this (see PETA comment) They are kids. i dont know i cant really add more to what i am saying so i am going to go over to my buddies house and get some air and prepare to help him move |
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that should read: A parent can tell their kid it isn't wrong to tease Muslim kids, but their kid will still get into trouble because the consensus is that it is wrong. |
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Thank you! That is completely reasonable! |
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"evidence" |
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no, i think that the people who strive to learn and understand things better are the people who will grasp what is happening in the world much sooner than the people with their heads buried in the sand. the church does what it does, but it sure isn't very good at discovering the solar system, the shape of the earth, curing diseases, the world we live in, etc. in fact, i've only seen it run in the opposite direction from progress... |
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if you don't want sex education taught in school, please consider it incumbent upon you to take part in your local school district. this is what you do have a say in - your town, your school district. you can influence decisions made by the community you live in. if most people in your district want no sex ed in school, that's fine. that's how local government is supposed to work! |
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if you think this meathead who got arrested for tresspassing is the victim of a crazy elementary school principal drunk on his own power, i think you're probably being played, man. |
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well, one can bury his head in the sand on both sides of the line. of course I believe in certain things that science has "proven," but in certain areas (like the mind), science simply can't give all the answers.. it's not even something far far in the future for science, it is an area that is completely 100% impossible for science to "answer." |
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that's because it isn't the point of science. the point is to perpetually dispute, test, question and get closer to finding better ways of understanding things. this is the exact opposite of what religions seek to do. |
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I can see your point on a purely biological level, but that's really where we part company on this point i think. I think that teaching kids that "gay" relates to "abnormal", even from a (dubious) scientific standpoint would lead to, um, unpleasantness. Can you imagine being gay in that class? The easiest way to deal with any of this is just to have it banned entirely from education (hello clause 28), but that smacks of head-in-the-sand to me, i dunno. I think arf makes a good point about it removing the federal element from any of this business though, one system can't fit all. It's a thorny issue, frankly. |
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and on the position of the church.. I'm no christian, but the church is progressing. it just isn't the kind of institution that is supposed to cure disease or discover the solar system. they do what they do, as you say, and what they do is "God" and "belief." Simply because "god" can never become more than belief to a christian (a person who KNOWS god exists isn't a christian)... they've come a long way in interpreting the writings and "adapting" them to the time we live in (which isn't a negation of gods word, more a recognition of human error on earlier interpretations of gods word). |
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"As i said why not age 14-17?" at that age it's basically irrelevant. people have their own unwavering opinions by that point. I agree that they shouldn't promote homosexuality, but they should at least address it and promote tolerance. If a parent wants to undo that and teach their kid to be intolerant, that's their right. I don't see the Peta comparison, as that is not teached in school curriculum. I guess the line between teaching tolerance and promoting something is fine to most people, but it can be handled in a way where it is effective. I mean, since schools have started teaching anti-racism topics, I would be willing to bet there are many non-racist kids with racist parents, and these parents wish dearly for their kids to also be racist. I don't think that it's a bad thing that some parents are outraged because their children are being taught to be more tolerant, as long as they are only taught to be tolerant of the difference in humans that don't harm others. |
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yes, I agree that testing, questioning and such are good ways of reaching better understandings of things. science is indeed a good thing, but sometimes it reaches too far. I wish I could talk to you in person, 'cause when I read my own posts I see that I mostly look like I'm standing still in my own little spot, but I am definately not doing that, it's just.. I have no idea how to make it seem otherwise... |
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reaches too far = "tries to.. erh.. eat more than it can chew" or whatever that proverb is... chew more than it can eat, perhaps? |
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i find those points particularly insightful, q4 |
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I wish we had a better followup system here because i hate going back to check numbers. According to todays sources including the man himself (on todays radio program) He was arrested because he refused to leave. Overall the committee heard what he had to say and was going to (in this case) rule in his favor. The super steped in and said no. At this point he objected... was asked to leave and didnt because he wanted it resolved. Because he was asked to leave and didnt they threatened calling the police. He wanted it resolved and was well mannored. Kind of out of order. |
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Dont worry abou the thread getting big and flamey we are all gentlemen here and i would assume it will be ok. :) Since you numbered these that is how i will address them: 1. "They" was used overly loosely. But as far as getting arrested for "no reason" it happens all the time. I would love to find some credible sources to link you to. I have seen it on various programs and various other mediums. A quick search wouldnt be very fruitful. Alex Jones (for a minor example) gets arrested alot and because he knows his rights he gets off clean (bonus points for knowing who jones is.) Now hes not the best example but a real good quick one as i am eating and typing. 2. This one is tough because while they have rights marrage was defined as between a man and a woman. You want to live together that is fine but to alter what already is written to get marrage benefits is something else IMO. 3. The point with this is... Because those people supposedly represent the people you so lovingly ploped into a catagory ... because they supposedly represent us they misrepresent or could be used to make that group look bad. So bad in fact that alot of Christian beliefs will be illegal. Like protesting gay marrages or things of that nature. That will soon be looked upon as a hate crime. There were 40 some peaceful protesters that were arrested for protesting something similar. I'll try and find the link..... that should be easier. |
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stop. never said that. i was saying that the parent has the option to exlude the child if they so choose. |
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Yeah i look at it as not natural relations. Marrage is a life partnership but also serves as a grounds for procreating and having a solid family. (ie not that ghetto crack whore with 9 kids syndrome) Not that alot of familes know what this remotely means because people are so selfcentered that most marrages have a divorce occur. Most friends i have have divorced parents but this is turning into a tangent. Just trying to tie up loose ends right now. Perhaps this should be entirely up to communities to vote on here. vary from school to school bu ti dont see this type of thing going this way because if you choose not to include it you will appear not tolerant. |
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This went above the principal. Dont use speculation. there is more to the story than what was posted. I am not going into it because this thread has already gone a touch off of topic. And i dont really feel like explaining every inch of it. Just wanted to talk about what was there. My first mistake was posting this at this board which assuredly i wont be doing again. This board follows the general rule of things not to post (religion and politics) because most members are on one side of things and these threads tend to go nowhere. If anyone wants to disagree with that you are dillusional. Happens all the time. We've quite strayed away from this main point (toddlers/children being a focal point of stressing tolerence) *************************************************** As of this point i will stop posting in this thread and allow whatever to happen. I will go back to my regular crap posting techniques that acquired my 20,000+ posts here because that tends to work better than conversation. No offense to anyone of course. I should have frankly known better in my years coming here. Sober mistake |
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