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i presented this question in slightly different words to a single person in the evolution thread. i'd like to know if anybody else has a third option to give me. i admit that i might be obsessed with the issue. i can think of two possibilities of reality: possibility one: there exists both things with the ability to experience/feel their existence (not necessarily think, but feel) as well as things without the ability to experience their existence. thus there exists a critical set of circumstances, a key setup which, when assembled, in a single instantatneous moment (involving no duration of time) consciousness or the ability to experience is turned on. possibility other: there does not exist a critical set of circumstances that turn on this ability of experience that makes us have a point of view because consciousness or at least the ability to experience (i don't know if consciousness includes the ability to think or just feel; language here is slippery) is at some level an inherent part of all things and therefore is not needed to be turned on. in this situation the difference bewteen you and a rock is not conscious/unconscious but rather differening levels or qualities of experience. |
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<- reads again and again to decipher bear with me :) |
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I believe you could make your point more clear. try to do so. |
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in clearer (hopefully) words, and i'll just use the term "conscious" for simplicity's sake, though i'm not sure it is correct: 1. there are things that are conscious and there are things that are unconscious. some would say humans and animals are conscious and plants and rocks are not. some would say shrimp are conscious, some would not. different people would draw the line in different places although the important thing here is that the line exists, regardless of where it lies. for this to be true there would have to exist a certain physical set of circumstances in which consciousness is turned on in an individual in a single instantaneous moment. if one is to believe that some things are not conscious they should logically also believe in some sort of key setup as well as the instantaneous arising of conscoiusness in an individual. 2. all things are conscious. the difference between things is not that some are conscious and some are not, but rather, as i said above, some have a different levels and/or qualities of consciousness. |
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me no understand... :) |
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3. I'm the only conscious being. |
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ok going for the latter ill start by stating that all living things experience sensation, regardless of how much 'thinking ability' that form has (so include plants) the critical set of circumstances required to 'experience' may well be instigated by an experience (such as a near-death experience) thats a big human thing.. for example.. i almost got killed a few weeks back.. and in the days after i was relishing all the little things.. back on topic tho.. i would say that it is the result of circumstances/experiences that opens you up to further experience. consciousness and awareness are things which are especially inherent in people. unfortunately theyre easy things to bury with preconception, but it is experience itself that makes you conscious. a person is their experiences, the totality of all parts and thoughts, so it is not the experience itself that makes a person conscious, nor does consciousness create experiences reality lies in the moment itself when you are conscious of experience |
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imagine a developing human. if you believe that at some point the embryo or the germ cells (sperm and egg) were not conscious then there must logically be some sort of physical situation, a key set of circumstances, in which consciousness arose. there HAD to be a single moment before which the developing human was not conscious and after which the developming human was conscious. |
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kick my ass i fucked up :) its all the same to me. trying to divide consciousness and experience is totally pointless :D |
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i'm not sure exactly what you are asserting... do you believe these are the only two possibiites, or do you believe there are more? |
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i'm not asking anyone to make a choice between the two, i'm just trying to get the options straight. whether one is true or the other i don't know if we can logically figure out. i know what my experience is, but i don't know if i would claim to be able to back it up by logic. |
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i guess what im trying to say is that the reality lies somewhere in between that dualism you presented to us |
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that's fine, but if so, you are asserting that the reality lies between these two possibilities, and no others? |
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both make sense but disagree with each other. i dont walk around thinking 'am i conscious or not' but from time to time i dont come across as being particularly conscious :D |
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...not that i can imagine how it could be a little of both... |
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yes, but couldn't the becoming conscious have gone in slight stages. much as if you are waking up from sleeping? |
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i'm not saying whether or not they disagree, or what i think during the day, i'm simply wondering if there is any other possibility outside these situations. |
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thats the point. i could go into thirds fourths and fifths but what would be the point. consciousness is not something you can put your finger on. its only something you can experience from moment to moment, totally fluid |
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which makes consciousness and experience one and the same thing |
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of course it would be in stages, but if you believe there was EVER a moment before which the developing human was unconscious, you must believe in some critical moment. if it is an ABSOLUTELY continuous process of "waking" then at no point was there a moment of absolute "sleep" |
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hmm.. . well.. . your thinking about all this is very strange terms.. . human terms obviously. .. if it was a case of on/off youd remember the precise time of initiation of conciousness.. . as would a robot.. . ours relies on our memory.. . so its a gradual build up to the point we are at now when you say that you consider yourself 'aware' of your existence. .. memory and conciousness are very important and interesting topics for me.. . I can see myself getting carried away here (: |
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i totally agree, consciousness is fluid, nothing solid about it. but i think if consider seriously the developing human scenario i brought up you will better understand what i am getting at. |
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its certainly not an on and off matter is it :) BUT your consciousness is your own, and you can open yourself up to / shut your self off to anything you please. |
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a gradual build up... is that to say you imagine possibility two? again, i'm not asking for people to take sides (though you can) i just want to be certain that i have this straight, that there are no more possibilities. |
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yeah i think ive strayed from your point so back to my first reply say a tree gets chopped down is it conscious of that? i reckon it is. |
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:) |
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being a living thing, the sensation is felt, therefore it is conscious of that experience. |
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"living" in the biological sense is not as important here as whether or not it is conscious, is it? or whether or not it experiences its existence. |
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conciousness is something born of lanuage many people believe.. . without language with which to think there is no conciousness.. . iconography existed before lanuage.. . so humans would have been thinking in pictures rather than words.. . I believe conciousness is something you begin to form as you begin to learn language and to interact using that language with other people.. . eventually you build enough experience in this matter to be able to claim your own thoughts and develop your conciousness. .. |
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How do you know that the tree feels anything ? Maybe he can react to an 'attack', but it may be an automatic process. |
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no but you questioned what consciousness is id agrue that anything living experiences sensation, and that sensation is a major component of consciousness |
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who can say that it doesnt :) |
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this is why i didn't want to use the term consciousness originally... let's just talk about things as "experiencing their existence" or "not experiencing their existence." this means that something can experience in the sense that they feel, regardless of their symbolic/linguistic capacity. |
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well mr darius this is true.. . and if you believe it or not its still true for us humans.. . we still react more on instinct than anything else. .. |
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I think it's totally wrong... Being conscious is knowing that you are alive and that you can interact with your environment. |
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you can be deaf mute + blind and be conscious |
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so what is your opinion on the developing human scenario? did you feel when you were sperm? did you feel when you were embryo? i hope you don't mind me going at you. i find you to be sane grounds for reflection :) |
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you guys are taking offense to what Im saying yet agreeing with me (: |
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I lean more towards option 2 (i.e. consciousness is a continuum). I realize that that isn't what you were asking. To answer that: I would be hard-pressed to think of any other options, aside from a synthesis of the two. That would be something like this: Consciousness is a continuum, but each of us has a threshhold below which we don't acknowledge entities as "really conscious". This threshhold could vary greatly, from the solipsist who acknowledges no consciousness other than eir own, to a blissed-out mystic or dopehead who sees the entire world as alive and intelligent. |
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no no its a pleasure :) <- thinks some more |
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true, but acknowledging something's consciousness is not the same as determining whether or not that something actually is conscious. i often think in terms of middle ground, but i can't imagine that the reality could lie anywhere but in one option or the other. either consiousness is a complete continuum, or it is not a complete continuum. |
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i take no offense to what you ar saying. |
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Im pretty sure conciousness comes in an effing strata of variation.. . from the lowly street thug to the poetic genius |
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word, i've been across the board! |
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no I was refering to darius and johnny.. . Im not the least bit upset. .. |
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ok i see a bit clearer where youre coming from. until were born we havent experienced anything except for being a foetus. damned if i can remember that. however, i would say that even experiences that early do have an impact on you. take the mothers state of mind and physiology into account. those not only shape the physical development of the baby, but also the mental development. the totality of the mother (such as unfortunate cases where the mother is a drug addict) can have an almost scientific impact on how the baby, and how its mind is going to form. but simply put, i think that the mothers frame of mind has a significant influence on the baby going back as far as the sperm and the egg, im the combination of those things, not just one. genetics is tricky. just what do we inherit from each parent? to go here i have to dissolve my 'consciousness post conception' argument.. but i guess it would make sense to say that what you are made of after all has a significant impact on what you will become. whats in genetics? experience of our ancestors? i wonder sometimes :) |
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But what I'm saying is that "determining whether or not something actually is conscious" depends on one's own threshhold. Unless you've got some objective measure of consciousness.... I think for this discussion to go really deep we need to to be very clear and careful with our definitions. |
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course im not offended.. i just spotted the loophole :) |
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all that is biological.. . of course Im a believer in collective intelligence.. . so I think that instinct is just an inbuilt form of knowledged passed through genes.. . its most certainly subconcious rather than concious.. . |
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but no ill maintain that i could not have been conscious until i became me isnt reincarnation a beautiful image tho! |
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