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If the Iraqi people attempt to overthrow Saddam Hussein, which is a huge IF. They'll still be killing and effectively war. What I do know out of all of this and what is absolutely clear to me is that the anti-war brigade are just simply pussy. And extremely selfish at that. The Anti-war brigade are always anti-war no matter what the circumstances so there is really little point in reasoning with them. There'll see ill in any good, thats just the way they are and will always be - doomed for life unfortunately. |
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"You don't destroy thousands of tonnes of weapons and not have some form of paperwork to go with it." I think he sold them and doesn't want to give away the names of the buyers. I'd worry more about the people who have bought these things... |
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There's nothing to prove. Resolution 1441 called on Iraq to give full and immediate co-operation with the weapons inspectors or face serious consequences. Iraq hasn't given full and immediate co-operation, therefore it's time for serious consequences. If Iraq had co-operated fully there wouldn't be a dossier of well over a hundred unresolved issues. If Iraq had co-operated immediately we wouldn't still be dragging bits and pieces of information out of them months after the resolution was passed. |
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Good to hear from ya Promo!! What you have said is total bullshit, but still... I was in favour of the last Gulf War, and I have been in favour of some of the other conflicts before and after that. You see I make up my mind on the merits of each situation, and I don't blindly follow ANY leader simply because he is the leader!!! Democracy relies on the people ability to question the leadership, and oppose it if necessary! |
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This is exactly how I feel also. Thank you Danb. "If Iraq had co-operated fully there wouldn't be a dossier of well over a hundred unresolved issues. If Iraq had co-operated immediately we wouldn't still be dragging bits and pieces of information out of them months after the resolution was passed. " |
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I STILL fail to understand how invading Iraq and killing its people (and very likely our own) will make Iraq, or the gulf region a safer place. If someone can show me how invading will get rid of these WMDs when we don't know where they are in the first place then fine lets do it! If that was the aim of invasion I would be more likely to accept it. But the stated aim of the US lead invasion is to remove Saddam from power... which again I say I ILLEGAL UNDER INTERNATIONAL LAW, which we supposed to be upholding by forcing Saddam to disarm!!! |
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The whole argument of weapons of mass destruction has been the wrong one. The argument all along should have been the moral crusade. The liberation of the Iraqi people. Like it or not we do need to help them and get rid of the regime. They are just normal people like you and me. The reason they don't rise against Saddam or say things against the regime is because they live in a state of fear. Perhaps eventually people will rise against him, perhaps not. An alternative to direct Anglo-American warfare may be to arm the rebels of the Northern terroritories of Iraq or certainly give them air support. Whatever conflict/ war does arrise it needs to be clean and efficient and I personally don't believe that'll be the case if the people or rebels attempt to overthrow Saddam most likely it'll be more messy than our own efforts. Aside from all this the problem is not so much the war but what happens after the war. How do we stop the country decending into more questionable circumstances with dodgy leaders and governments, perhaps a puppet goverment would be the right choice short term. |
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IS ILLEGAL UNDER INTERNATIONAL LAW |
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"The Anti-war brigade are always anti-war no matter what the circumstances" no, war can be justified to end a war. to stop the invasion of palestine by Israel for example |
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The Israel / Palestine situation is clearcut. Give the Palestines there own territory and put a fence between the two. |
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"The whole argument of weapons of mass destruction has been the wrong one." I agree, and I would have felt far happier about this if it had been stated that it was war to save the people of Iraq, or even a war to safeguard the worlds oil supplies, or whatever the real reason is! If there is a genuine, moral, and legal reason for invading Iraq then I would happily support such action. So far, Mr Blair and Mr Bush have wholly FAILED to convince me and millions of others that there is such a reason. Surely its not that hard? And as for the Iraqi people, I saw an interview recently with an Iraqi exile, whos family had been tourtured and killed, and she was also against military action, and believed that it would cause FAR MORE harm than good to the people of Iraq. She said that sanctions had killed as many as Saddam had in the last 12 years, and the people of Iraq would not trust or accept a leader imposed by America. |
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Another wise idea from Promo... why haven't they thought of that already?! |
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Anything other than rapid, total compliance where WMDs are concernerd is asking for a bomb in the face if you ask me. By stalling or dicking about at all they are bringing a bombing upon themselves. No ifs, no buts. They had their chance... |
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Sorry geez... don't mean to be rude... I just hate cats! |
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LuckyPsycho, Well smart arse, you don't have any solutions. Just oppose, oppose, oppose. |
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My family's palestinian mates reckon the jews should be moved back to Poland now WW2 is over. Any thoughts on that? |
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"By stalling or dicking about at all they are bringing a bombing upon themselves. No ifs, no buts. They had their chance... " NO!!!! Can't you see that what you are saying is wholly and disturbingly wrong?! You can't possibly justify the lives of THOUSANDS of people (theres and ours), because they are stalling or dicking around, or anything like that. They are not killing people, and for us to 'throw the first stone' is fundamentally wrong. We have an oppotunity to avoid conflict, and the devastation of a entire country, we should take that opportunity. This is so very different to the last gulf war, where innocent blood had been spilt, and we responded to that. It is us that would spilling the blood of the innocents... and for what? Because they aren't being forthcoming enough? NOT FUCKING GOOD ENOUGH! |
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I think it's a good enough reason. This is the UN resolutions, something which Iraq shouldn't take so lightly. |
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My thoughts are this. The actual area was just baren land before the Jews moved in. So the Palentines claim to it was pretty weak at best. The 'Palestines' only started to kick up a fuss once the Jews actually had created a bussling economy and cities before that you didn't hear a wimper out of them, suddenly they were interested in the area. Always the same, sad really. |
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things that would convince me a little bit about the good intentions of the US: - stay off Iraq's oilsupplies - get out of Iraq as soon as the war is over - do not install puppet government - make guarantees that Turkey doesn't invade northern Iraq - do not sell weapons to hostile countries anymore - cooperate with the international wartribunal there's more but that would be a start... |
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It depends what we are looking to solve. If its WMD that you want me to solve... I would say that it is virtually solved already, and has been for several years. Saddam IS NOT building WMD, and as far as we can find he doesn't have any. Even if he does he would not dare to use them. He has not threatened to use anything against anyone since the Gulf War, and for some reason he is now public enemy No2! If you are looking for a solution to the problem of Saddam then we should be looking to the Iraqi people, who are the only people that can legitimately, legally, successfully, and permanently overthrow him. Sanctions should be lifted to enable them to survive and grow, and support should be given to them towards this aim. Once again I will say that invading is not the answer. Will those do? |
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So even if we had proof (I'm not saying we do) they were preparing for war, a pre-emptive strike would NEVER be justified? Promo: Yep, like the Chinese with Hong Kong. My Jewish mate said the same thing re the land- it was basically wasteland before the jews settled. Apparently a lot of the trouble stems from the ignorance of the Palestinian population (nb. as their govt. controls education so closely). They see the enviable position the Israelis have (good quality of live, high stnadards of education) and it is very easy for them to convince their people (young men in particular) that they got that wealthy through stealing their land. |
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Promo you do talk some shit... "The actual area was just baren land before the Jews moved in." Jeruselem is the key city in the Israel/Palestine thing, and that is one of the cornerstones of modern civilisation... a long way from "barren land"! |
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Whether or not an attack on Iraq is against international law depends on who you ask. Resolution 1441 threatened 'serious consequences' if Iraq didn't comply. Iraq hasn't complied so what do think the serious consequences should be? No TV for a week? |
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The land was divided: a piece for the muslims and a piece for the jews. Historicly the land was ruled by muslims most of the time. But that doesn't even matter: the land was divided by the international community and they need to stick by that |
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The whole argument that sanctions are killing people in Iraq is quite a spurious one. Iraq is able to sell as much oil as it likes to buy food, medical supplies and support various other programmes that would benefit Iraqis. |
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And if you are talking about the Jewish settlements that have been deliberately built on land that was designated for Palestinians, then yes the palestinians are pissed off and probably jealous. Have you seen any of the shit that the Israelis have been doing? They go into palestinian settlements, tear down houses that are home to 15 people, and build housing estates for israelis... in some cases they don't even build anything, they just tear down the houses! |
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"so what do think the serious consequences should be?" That's up to the UN to decide not the US |
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LuckyPsycho, Ceri JC just summed it up above, its just human nature. People like to take away from those who are more successful and wealthy, its just resentment, ring any bells Lucky? Or are you above that? Lol. |
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I should clarify... Attacking Iraq to facilitate disarmament is not illegal. But, attacking Iraq to remove its leader is VERY illegal. |
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You say the WMD issue is virtually solved. Why then the massive UN dossier of unresolved issues? You say Saddam isn't building WMD? How do you know, where is *your* evidence of that? You say he hasn't used WMD since the Gulf War. Try telling that to the marsh arabs. |
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Promo... you have got some seriously fucked up ideas about whats going on in the world, if you think the Palestinians are fighting because they are jealous of the Israelis! Are you Jewish by any chance? |
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I don't need to prove that he isn't doing it!!! Its the US that needs to prove that he is!!! You can't possibly justify war because we can't prove that has isn't making WMD... can't you see how dumb that sounds?! |
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I know the land was owned by the palestinians and there were a few houses on it, but it wasn't the sprawling metropalis it is today, not by a long way. Re: Tearing down houses etc. I accept that is wrong, but what are the israli's meant to do? It's not like they can just accept getting bombed all the time and not be excpected to retaliate. I wish there was a world authority powerful enough to put a huge wall down the middle (unlike berlin, comparatively few families would have relatives/friends on the other side) and not let anyone cross. Re: International law, exactly- who decides international law? An alien arbitrator? Naturally each country wants the law that will serve it best. The smaller countries will say it should be decided on votes, each country getting a vote, the bigger countries will say it should be based on wealth/power. Ultimately who decides? The most powerful. Wrong as that may be there's not a lot you can do about it. |
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Serious consequences can only mean military action in this context. |
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"You say Saddam isn't building WMD? How do you know, where is *your* evidence of that?" he's innocent until proven guilty and that's what the weaponsinspectors are for, when the weaponsinspectors decide it's no use then we go to the next step |
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No, I'm justifying war on the grounds that a) Iraq hasn't met it's obligations under 1441, and b) it's the right thing to do for the Iraqi people. |
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LuckyPsycho, Opposing again, I bet you were a lovely child. Lol. |
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Jealousy is certainly an element of it. Palestinian terrorists pay young men's families if they will be suicide bombers as well as "educating" them that it is Allah's will. The only Palestinians I know are highly educated and think it's appaling the way they trick/coerce the poorer, more ignorant people into doing things that will just lead to violence. |
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"Serious consequences can only mean military action in this context." there are more millitary consequences than a full scale war... |
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Reminds me of the day of that anti-war march in London. That family of asylum seekers were on tv who said (I'm paraphrasing, but it was very close), "These anti war protesters don't know what they're on about- we have come from iraq, our family have been killed and tortured by saddam's regime. We want him removed!" |
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No! The weapons inspectors *are not* there to prove Saddam's guilt. They're there to inspect his disarmament. Iraq is supposed to be forthcoming and fully co-operative. |
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Danbrusca is right Resolution 1441 is all we needed in the first place to deal with Sadman Insane. Unfortunately our Tony has made a right balls of it by getting France et al involved. Now the US are saying we don't actually need to go to War in alliance with the British. This is not cool. |
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Rumsfeld was trying to give Blair a political escape route if needed but made a mess of it ;) |
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"The weapons inspectors *are not* there to prove Saddam's guilt. They're there to inspect his disarmament" inspecting disarmament IS trying to see if has illegal weapons and if they find them he must destroy them and he did that. |
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I seriously can't believe what I'm hearing here. The Israelis have killed 100's if not 1000's more palestinians than the other way round. You only have to listen to ANY news report on that conflict, and it will say 7 people were killed by a palestinian suicide bomber, and in retalition the Israeli army invaded a town and killed 35 people. That conflict will not be resolved using a fucking wall!!! It will be resolved when they start talking to each other! Jesus... has the world gone mental in the last few months!!! Iraq poses NO significant threat to my country, and therefore I cannot support action that will cause the death of thousands of people, just because we think he might have some anthrax. I don't care what it takes or how long... unless there is a clear and verifiable threat I will never support such action. Pre-emptive attack could be justified if the threat is great and immediate enough. It clear isn't. Give me the evidence of the threat and I will support the attack. Iraqi's not doing exactly as we ask them, when we ask them IS NOT evidence... can't anyone see that? |
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I'm outta here... off to have my smallpox and anthrax jabs! |
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all i seem to be reading here is little boys saying war! war! they deserve it! do any of you really have the conviction that this is justified, that you would send a loved one to go fight this war, or fight yourself. (rhetorical) |
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LuckyPsycho, Bye bye. I guess you'll be going down your wormhole as well? Lol. |
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No, you misunderstand the resolutions. They come from the assumption that Iraq has WMD. 1441 is a final chance to come clean and tell the inspectors where eveything is so they can verify it's destruction. Again, the onus is on Iraq to give this information to the inspectors, not for the inspectors to find it. |
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