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Free speech
 

offline RussellDust on 2020-07-08 10:37 [#02605123]
Points: 15104 Status: Regular



I’m sure Tony will find some to say against this

LAZY_TITLE


 

offline dariusgriffin from cool on 2020-07-08 13:46 [#02605125]
Points: 11806 Status: Lurker



imo the way this whole affair is being talked about is
plenty revelatory as to the true intent behind the vapid
letter


 

offline dariusgriffin from cool on 2020-07-08 13:56 [#02605127]
Points: 11806 Status: Lurker



i.e. some people love to talk about open debate and free
speech but what they really want is to free themselves from
actual contradiction and consequences



 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2020-07-08 13:58 [#02605128]
Points: 27788 Status: Regular



I think my issue with cancel culture is that invariably one
day something totally stupid and damaging will become the
prevailing wisdom and when someone speaks out about it they
will be brigaded and not have an outlet of counter argument.


Free speech definitely should have consequences, im not sure
ruining peoples lives over social media is a good idea, its
much better to try and make a persuasive argument to change
a persons view I reckon, the people who never change I just
ignore them.

I get the impression Chomsky is right when he says this is a
gift to the ultra right wingers, this will just embolden
them and make them gather more dim witted supporters.

I never really say anything over social media nowadays
through fear of something ive said being perceived wrongly
and ive always considered myself a reasonable person with no
extreme views, no bigoted convictions


 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2020-07-08 13:59 [#02605129]
Points: 27788 Status: Regular | Followup to dariusgriffin: #02605127



having said that, people like the CEO at the restaurant who
was openly racist can go to hell


 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2020-07-08 14:01 [#02605130]
Points: 27788 Status: Regular



What I can envisage happening is a continual fracturing
effect when key people within this movement have more
radical and hardened opinions, then you will have a
multitude of disparate groups like you have with modern day
feminist movement. You know that scene in Monty Python with
the peoples front of Judea


 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2020-07-08 14:05 [#02605131]
Points: 27788 Status: Regular



Ive has the thought that im just too old to have an
objective view of the whole thing, and my opinions are
ossified as a consequence of the age in which i was brought
up. Im just going to keep out of the way of the whole thing
and watch as a causal observer


 

offline Tony Danza from a society on 2020-07-08 14:20 [#02605132]
Points: 2711 Status: Regular | Followup to RussellDust: #02605123



This is a pretty good summary of one aspect of my
response to The Letter. No, really, click through and read
it. It's good stuff.

I'll fortify it with a quote from Corey Robin's book The
Reactionary Mind:

Though it is often claimed that the left stands for
equality while the right stands for freedom, this notion
misstates the actual disagreement between right and left.
Historically, the conservative has favored liberty for the
higher orders and constraint for the lower orders. What the
conservative sees and dislikes in equality, in other words,
is not a threat to freedom but its extension. For in that
extension, he sees a loss of his own freedom. “We are all
agreed as to our own liberty,” declared Samuel Johnson.
“But we are not agreed as to the liberty of others: for in
proportion as we take, others must lose. I believe we hardly
wish that the mob should have liberty to govern us.” Such
was the threat Edmund Burke saw in the French Revolution:
not merely an expropriation of property or explosion of
violence but an inversion of the obligations of deference
and command. “The levellers,” he claimed, “only change
and pervert the natural order of things.”



 

offline Tony Danza from a society on 2020-07-08 14:41 [#02605133]
Points: 2711 Status: Regular



"The occupation of an hair-dresser, or of a working
tallow-chandler, cannot be a matter of honour to any
person—to say nothing of a number of other more servile
employments. Such descriptions of men ought not to suffer
oppression from the state; but the state suffers oppression,
if such as they, either individually or collectively, are
permitted to rule."

By virtue of membership in a polity, Burke allowed, men had
a great many rights—to the fruits of their labor, their
inheritance, education, and more. But the one right he
refused to concede to all men was that “share of power,
authority, and direction” they might think they ought to
have “in the management of the state.”




 

offline dariusgriffin from cool on 2020-07-08 15:02 [#02605134]
Points: 11806 Status: Lurker



that was my takeaway as well, why should the livelihood of
professional opinion-havers matter one iota to me or to
anyone who isn't a paid sophist?


 

offline steve mcqueen from caerdydd (United Kingdom) on 2020-07-10 21:05 [#02605248]
Points: 4707 Status: Regular



it is extremely dangerous that ANYONE ends up picking and
choosing what goes into this gigantic giga-brain feedback
loop!
(You know you can make entire tracks with just feedback and
a tiny initial excitation?)

What the solution would be is if there is no twitter, no
facebook, no centralised sites at all, but that as they say
is a conversation THEY aren't ready for. It's already
possible, all it would take is weight of uptake, maybe.
I mean, wasn't that what the original idea of the internet
was, before it got turned into a fucking ad serving
mechanismm...


 

offline steve mcqueen from caerdydd (United Kingdom) on 2020-07-10 21:19 [#02605249]
Points: 4707 Status: Regular



What y'all are talking about is not free speech, it's mob
mentality, modern day lynchings. But that is stoked by how
ppl receive information - eg 'trending', 'recommended'


 

offline steve mcqueen from caerdydd (United Kingdom) on 2020-07-10 21:30 [#02605250]
Points: 4707 Status: Regular



run riddim


 

offline Cliff Glitchard from DEEP DOWN INSIDE on 2020-07-10 22:14 [#02605261]
Points: 4080 Status: Regular



Free speech is fine, but the right to be offended is clearly
more important. To be progressive we really need to narrow
down exactly what is free to say and do. To seperate it from
hate speech, unwanted opinion and oppressive culture.

That's why I'm all aboard the cancel train now.
All this shit needs to go


 

offline hevquip from megagram dusk sect (United States) on 2020-07-10 23:07 [#02605284]
Points: 3122 Status: Regular



the consequence to free speech should be nothing more than
to be met with the free speech of another


 

offline steve mcqueen from caerdydd (United Kingdom) on 2020-07-10 23:18 [#02605287]
Points: 4707 Status: Regular



my postulate is: abolish all partial outlets of information
ie. ALL traditional outlets of information except for the
printing press everyone has in their pockets or on their
laps. Whatever comes of that is whatever comes of that, but
at least it isn't being pushed one way or another, or can be
accused of being pushed one way or another.


 

offline steve mcqueen from caerdydd (United Kingdom) on 2020-07-10 23:18 [#02605288]
Points: 4707 Status: Regular



LAZY_TITLE


 

offline steve mcqueen from caerdydd (United Kingdom) on 2020-07-10 23:19 [#02605291]
Points: 4707 Status: Regular



in the future, everything should be self-published


 

offline Tony Danza from a society on 2020-07-11 00:21 [#02605314]
Points: 2711 Status: Regular



What y'all are talking about is not free speech, it's
mob
mentality, modern day lynchings.


How about if social networks are configured so you can't
reply to someone unless you have as many or more followers?
That will stop important people from being harassed by
peasants.


 

offline steve mcqueen from caerdydd (United Kingdom) on 2020-07-11 01:21 [#02605338]
Points: 4707 Status: Regular



you reply to whoever who like and if people choose to see
that then they do... fuck it's almost like those problems
were already solved like 30 years ago.

'Popularity' is a lense biased to whoever is holding it,
obviously... how absolutely fucking infantile is the idea of
"upvotes" or "likes", like, with reddit likes how can ppl
not see that it is not anything to do with 'quality' (HAH)
of the post, ... that is up to the person who is reading it
to decide.
It drives me bonkers how ppl can't see this, that what ppl
call 'good' is just the (now) the result of a weird feedback
thing.


 

offline steve mcqueen from caerdydd (United Kingdom) on 2020-07-11 01:28 [#02605339]
Points: 4707 Status: Regular



would be interesting to be able to make selections from your
group of 'friends', and see the 'world' (all posts) through
the eyes of that particular selection (things that they've
upvoted/whatever), ... then switch to another selection and
see that...


 

offline steve mcqueen from caerdydd (United Kingdom) on 2020-07-11 01:29 [#02605340]
Points: 4707 Status: Regular



though i guess that is probably quite close to eg. lists on
twitter


 

offline steve mcqueen from caerdydd (United Kingdom) on 2020-07-11 01:35 [#02605341]
Points: 4707 Status: Regular



right im off to the garage room..


 

offline Tony Danza from a society on 2020-07-11 01:39 [#02605342]
Points: 2711 Status: Regular



what ppl call 'good' is just the (now) the result of a
weird feedback thing.


That's true whereas Scientists know that Science determines
what is *really* good (Racism)


 

offline dariusgriffin from cool on 2020-07-11 13:12 [#02605390]
Points: 11806 Status: Lurker | Followup to steve mcqueen: #02605287



what you're proposing is actual mob mentality and the
abolition of expertise? i don't understand how your mind
works


 

offline dariusgriffin from cool on 2020-07-11 13:20 [#02605391]
Points: 11806 Status: Lurker | Followup to Cliff Glitchard: #02605261



oh cool the author behind that twitter account writes for
far right rag Standpoint :) i love comedy too


 

offline hevquip from megagram dusk sect (United States) on 2020-07-11 16:37 [#02605392]
Points: 3122 Status: Regular



what if most things are already governed by mob mentality
and it's just that most things don't need to be enforced so
severely, so you don't even notice? is the idea of the
social contract not almost the same as mob mentality? or
that it states what one must do on their end so as to avoid
the mob? that we're all controlled by mob mentality, but
it's only the craziest mobs we take note of? isn't expertise
moot if the mob agrees it is?


 

offline Tony Danza from a society on 2020-07-11 16:55 [#02605393]
Points: 2711 Status: Regular | Followup to hevquip: #02605392



When you think about it the real problem is language which
enables cooperation, and cooperation is the beginning of the
mob. It may look like "democracy" and "education" but really
it's a way to create a super-organism made of
humans-as-cells just like in John Carpenter's prophetic The
Thing.


 

offline Tony Danza from a society on 2020-07-11 16:59 [#02605394]
Points: 2711 Status: Regular



Margaret Thatcher (pbuh) was wrong when she said that
there's no such thing as society - society is very real and
it's already assimilated you into a big tentacled blob of
itself. Retreat from others, practice no-talking and
no-reading, burrow a cell into the earth and be truly free.
Actually you will only be truly free when you forget what
freedom is.

I have decided to become a mole. Goodbye.


 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2020-07-11 20:30 [#02605395]
Points: 27788 Status: Regular | Followup to Tony Danza: #02605394



Margert Thatcher didnt believe in altruism or doing
something for nothing and I hate her for that, whats the
point of living if we are out for ourselves 100% of the
time, i dont believe that even in my most cynical of
moments, it would deny the human spirit


 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2020-07-11 20:48 [#02605396]
Points: 27788 Status: Regular



thats why i hate the tories in general, they have this
belief everyone is out for themselves at all times and they
are backstabbing careerists who would sell out their own
gran for 50p. Plenty of those type of people around but they
just cant imagine someone who doesnt think like they do


 


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