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Tao Te Ching
 

offline Tony Danza from not today, satan on 2019-06-13 13:12 [#02580089]
Points: 1450 Status: Regular



ONE

The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao.
The name that can be named is not the eternal name.
The nameless is the beginning of heaven and earth.
The named is the mother of ten thousand things.
Ever desireless, one can see the mystery.
Ever desiring, one can see the manifestations.
These two spring from the same source but differ in name;
This appears as darkness.
Darkness within darkness.
The gate to all mystery.


 

offline RussellDust on 2019-06-13 13:42 [#02580090]
Points: 13887 Status: Regular



expensive


 

offline RussellDust on 2019-06-13 13:43 [#02580091]
Points: 13887 Status: Regular



oh the links gone now....



 

offline RussellDust on 2019-06-13 13:45 [#02580092]
Points: 13887 Status: Regular



This is the water and this is the well. Drink full and
descend. The horse is the white of the eyes, and dark
within.


 

offline Tony Danza from not today, satan on 2019-06-13 13:45 [#02580093]
Points: 1450 Status: Regular



what did fobia linkify one of the words to a BUY BEST TAO
CHEAP page


 

offline RussellDust on 2019-06-13 13:55 [#02580097]
Points: 13887 Status: Regular



i was linked to a small but pricey clutch purse. gone now.


 

offline Roger Wilco from It's eBay for Sex on 2019-06-13 14:21 [#02580098]
Points: 379 Status: Regular | Followup to RussellDust: #02580097



You mean the LOEWE GATE LEATHER FLAP-OVER WALLET? I've got
one already. Though the sword in Fleep's strapline
links to this (Please buy a couple and send Phobia
a few well-earned shekels )


 

offline Roger Wilco from It's eBay for Sex on 2019-06-13 14:22 [#02580099]
Points: 379 Status: Regular



Handy for mock executions of political opponents and women.


 

offline Tony Danza from not today, satan on 2019-06-13 14:41 [#02580100]
Points: 1450 Status: Regular | Followup to Roger Wilco: #02580098



Out of stock?!

Caliphate: postponed.


 

offline Roger Wilco from It's eBay for Sex on 2019-06-13 15:13 [#02580105]
Points: 379 Status: Regular | Followup to Tony Danza: #02580100



There must have been a run on them. Phobia's coining it in,
living like a sultan.


 

offline welt on 2019-06-13 16:34 [#02580119]
Points: 1974 Status: Lurker



We can understand person as persona - the „face“
that an actor puts on to indicate the role he is to play on
stage - but only as the persona of absolute
nothingness. […] Person is through and through real. It is
the most real of realities. […] But at the same time it is
in the most elemental sense an „illusion“ precisely
because it is the highest mode of being, constituted in
unison with absolute nothingness and becoming manifest as
such. […] Personality is something altogether alive. […]
It is a mask of absolute nothingness precisely as
living spirit.

[…]

The absolute near side is the field of the essential death
of […] personal entities. It is the same time the field of
the essential life of those same beings, the field
where what is absolutely unnameable has a name and lives in
the everyday world of names
.

claims Keji Nishitani (1982, pp. 71-106)


 

offline welt on 2019-06-13 16:39 [#02580120]
Points: 1974 Status: Lurker



Getting more to the point .... there were several relevant
postings in various threads .. and it's impossible not to
lose track a bit

... What I'd like to know from you is: If you don't think
that personhood is part of, let's say, 'fundamental' reality
but something 'derivated' or even 'illusory' ... could you
give a short summary of your reasons for thinking so?


 

offline Tony Danza from not today, satan on 2019-06-13 17:06 [#02580121]
Points: 1450 Status: Regular | Followup to welt: #02580119



Nice! I'll have to read that. Not sure what "absolute near
side" means, I guess it will make more sense in context. I
see the nothingness aspect of Tao as nonspecificity, not as
absolute metaphysical nonbeing. It's the uncarved block,
totality before it's carved up and analyzed and named and
subdivided.


 

offline Tony Danza from not today, satan on 2019-06-13 17:07 [#02580122]
Points: 1450 Status: Regular | Followup to welt: #02580120



Well, the personal is contingent. It comes and goes.


 

offline mermaidman on 2019-06-13 17:51 [#02580123]
Points: 5429 Status: Regular



i think mohamed is a stupid bitch also in the eternal sense
not just because i think he is a stupid bitch and even
though stupid and bitch are relative


 

offline mermaidman on 2019-06-13 17:52 [#02580124]
Points: 5429 Status: Regular



what i’m trying to say is that he is ABSOLUTELY a stupid
bitch


 

offline mermaidman on 2019-06-13 17:59 [#02580125]
Points: 5429 Status: Regular



i’m sure even before a baby learns what stupid and bitch
are s/he’d look at mohamed and go “that’s a stupid
bitch alright”


 

offline mohamed on 2019-06-13 18:01 [#02580126]
Points: 28290 Status: Regular | Followup to mermaidman: #02580125 | Show recordbag



yeah, i admit i had the same suspect recently


 

offline mermaidman on 2019-06-13 18:07 [#02580127]
Points: 5429 Status: Regular | Followup to mohamed: #02580126



bro please you’re going to make me cry


 

offline mohamed on 2019-06-13 18:08 [#02580128]
Points: 28290 Status: Regular | Show recordbag



shit or cum


 

offline mohamed on 2019-06-13 18:14 [#02580129]
Points: 28290 Status: Regular | Show recordbag



RD got the scent of a prince now that hes half dead


 

offline mohamed on 2019-06-13 18:22 [#02580130]
Points: 28290 Status: Regular | Show recordbag



now were joking and shit but i aint fooling no one
horrordome.


 

offline mohamed on 2019-06-13 18:27 [#02580131]
Points: 28290 Status: Regular | Show recordbag



consciously


 

offline Tony Danza from not today, satan on 2019-06-13 18:29 [#02580132]
Points: 1450 Status: Regular



Scoundrels are disrupting my nice seminar on Eastern
metaphysics and yet my weapon remains on back order.

Truly, there ain't no justice.


 

offline mermaidman on 2019-06-13 18:36 [#02580133]
Points: 5429 Status: Regular



this ain’t no metaphysics this is the truth bro fo’
realz


 

offline mermaidman on 2019-06-13 18:39 [#02580134]
Points: 5429 Status: Regular | Followup to mohamed: #02580129



but sorry for interrupting


 

offline mermaidman on 2019-06-13 18:40 [#02580135]
Points: 5429 Status: Regular



wasn’t a reply to you mohamed you prince sniffer


 

offline mohamed on 2019-06-13 18:51 [#02580136]
Points: 28290 Status: Regular | Show recordbag



just hold a sign with MOHAMED SAY MORE written on it


 

offline Tony Danza from not today, satan on 2019-06-16 16:07 [#02580270]
Points: 1450 Status: Regular



TWO

Under heaven all can see beauty as beauty only because there
is ugliness.
All can know good as good only because there is evil.

Therefore having and not having arise together;
Difficult and easy complement each other;
Long and short contrast each other;
High and low rest upon each other;
Voice and sound harmonize each other;
Front and back follow each other.

Therefore the wise go about doing nothing, teaching
no-talking.
The ten thousand things rise and fall without cease,
Creating, yet not possessing,
Working, yet not taking credit.
Work is done, then forgotten.
Therefore it lasts forever.


 

offline mohamed on 2019-06-18 21:41 [#02580415]
Points: 28290 Status: Regular | Show recordbag



three?


 

offline umbroman3 from United Kingdom on 2019-06-18 21:43 [#02580416]
Points: 3320 Status: Lurker



http://classics.mit.edu/Browse/browse-Confucius.html

http://classics.mit.edu/Browse/browse-Lao.html

http://classics.mit.edu/Browse/browse-Tzu.html


 

offline Tony Danza from not today, satan on 2019-06-18 21:46 [#02580417]
Points: 1450 Status: Regular



I'm very picky about the translation though.

THREE

Not exalting the gifted prevents quarrelling.
Not collecting treasures prevents stealing.
Not seeing desirable things prevents confusion of the
heart.
The wise therefore rule by emptying hearts and stuffing
bellies,
By weakening ambitions and strengthening bones.
If people lack knowledge and desire,
Then it is best not to interfere.
If nothing is done, then all will be well.



 

offline Tony Danza from not today, satan on 2019-06-22 12:21 [#02580783]
Points: 1450 Status: Regular



FOUR

The Tao is an empty vessel; it is used, but never filled.
Oh, unfathomable source of ten thousand things!
Blunt the sharpness,
Untangle the knot,
Soften the glare,
Merge with dust.
Oh, hidden deep but ever present!
I do not know from whence it comes.
It is the forefather of the ancestors.



 

offline mohamed on 2019-06-22 15:55 [#02580818]
Points: 28290 Status: Regular | Show recordbag



thanks


 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2019-06-22 20:47 [#02580845]
Points: 24094 Status: Addict



I really like the new mermaid avatar


 

offline mohamed on 2019-06-23 11:24 [#02580957]
Points: 28290 Status: Regular | Show recordbag



when you cut a pepper in two, looks like a heart


 

offline mermaidman on 2019-06-23 11:57 [#02580958]
Points: 5429 Status: Regular | Followup to mohamed: #02580957



so what


 

offline mermaidman on 2019-06-23 11:57 [#02580959]
Points: 5429 Status: Regular



it doesn’t even look like a heart


 

offline mohamed on 2019-06-23 13:30 [#02580962]
Points: 28290 Status: Regular | Show recordbag



it looks like a heart sectioned in two, in the anatomical
sense, not the hearts you send or receive via email or
message


 

offline mermaidman on 2019-06-23 13:46 [#02580963]
Points: 5429 Status: Regular | Followup to mohamed: #02580962



oh sorry bro my fault


 

offline Tony Danza from not today, satan on 2019-06-28 13:38 [#02581335]
Points: 1450 Status: Regular



hey welt come back and let's enjoy some philosophy


 

offline mohamed on 2019-06-28 18:11 [#02581341]
Points: 28290 Status: Regular | Followup to Tony Danza: #02581335 | Show recordbag



that just made me lol with hours of distance


 

offline mohamed on 2019-07-03 17:43 [#02581693]
Points: 28290 Status: Regular | Show recordbag



dead announces dead.. no respect for real catos anymore


 

offline welt on 2019-07-15 10:02 [#02582451]
Points: 1974 Status: Lurker | Followup to Tony Danza: #02580122



You say „the personal comes and goes“.

But you never experience the real world other than as a
person. The impersonal/objective only ever appears as the
other side of the personal/the subject
. The idea of
cutting off the objective from the personal (and positing an
ultimate objective world that could exist without the
personal) is thus a theoretical abstraction which might be
false. [The authors of the Tao Te Ching might have had
something like this in mind when they claimed that the Dao
is beyond opposites which would include opposites such as
personal/impersonal, subjective/objective]. But then I would
say that the personal is a fundamental part of that which
you could call ‚ultimate reality‘ - because ultimate
reality would be that which makes possible the dimensions of
personality-impersonality subjectivity-objectivity which we
inhabit. But it would be wrong to identify the ultimate
dimension with just one of the aspects (either only the
personal or only the impersonal).

So what would your position on that be?

(Fun fact: Last month I signed a book contract with one of
the top academic publishers for a 250 pages book about
ontology/metaphysics/critique of metaphysics I’ve written
and roughly 2 to 3 pages of the last chapter consist of
xltronic-posts which were replies to ‚fleetmouse' which I
translated back to German and re-worked a bit to make them
sound more serious. Still I like the fact of a serious
academic book consisting partially of xltronic posts)


 

offline Tony Danza from not today, satan on 2019-07-15 14:17 [#02582454]
Points: 1450 Status: Regular



Seems like the same thrust of argument could be used as a
vindication of solipsism (it almost is here, actually).
Because our selves are so dear to us we exaggerate their
importance. I know with my mind, therefore everything's
mental. Well, I've only read about Africa in books,
therefore Africa must be essentially literary, papery, set
in sans-serif, and so forth...?

The personal gets snuffed out every night in dreamless
sleep. I can snuff out the personal with a club. Or more
neatly, consciousness has an off switch.

I'll give you a personal example of the contingent
nature of the mind and the self. I get migraine headaches.
Recently I've started to get transient aphasia during
migraine onset. I lose the ability to speak and understand
language. At first it was terrifying but now it's just
interesting. It's great fun to read sentences in books and
have them mean absolutely nothing then slowly resolve back
into meaning. It's an intellectual roller coaster.

We're contingent and composite. But we're narcissistic so we
like to imagine that our little subjectivities are central,
maybe even eternal. We guard them jealously, cling to them
and fear their loss. But think about it this way: there were
billions of Weltless years before you, so why should the
billions after you be any scarier or more worrisome?

p.s. I want royalties, or at least a copy of the book. just
give me the title and I'll get it from lib gen ;-)


 

offline Tony Danza from not today, satan on 2019-07-17 00:52 [#02582550]
Points: 1450 Status: Regular | Followup to welt: #02582451



But then I would say that the personal is a fundamental
part of that which you could call ‚ultimate reality‘ -
because ultimate reality would be that which makes possible
the dimensions of personality-impersonality
subjectivity-objectivity which we inhabit. But it would be
wrong to identify the ultimate dimension with just one of
the aspects (either only the personal or only the
impersonal).


If you were to divide the cosmos into "penguiny" and
"non-penguiny" I'd say you were vastly overestimating the
role of penguins in the cosmos. Isn't that what you're doing
with the personal?


 

offline welt on 2019-07-18 11:04 [#02582597]
Points: 1974 Status: Lurker



Naive realism / naive ‚objectivism'
- if somebody is opposed to ‚naive realism‘ (the
unthinking conviction that reality in itself is the same as
it appears to oneself) shouldn’t they also be opposed to
what one could call ‚naive objectivism‘ (the unthinking
conviction that there could be an object without a subject)
? The structure seems to be similar: The naive realist
beliefs that the pine-tree is green in itself, and not just
appearing to green to him. The naive objectivist believes
that there are objects in themselves, not just objects
appearing to a subject.
… My question to you would be: Where do you see the
relevant dis-analogy between ‚naive realism‘ and
‚naive objectivism‘?


The status of personhood/minds
- The claim that personhood or mind are ‚fundamental
parts of reality’ doesn’t imply (and actually
contradict the claim that ‚everything is mental’ or
‚everything is personal’ .. it implies that
everything emerges in the context of that which is
mental/persona
l
…the distinction between the
mental and non-mental and the personal and non-personal is
not denied … but they depend on each other
- The empirical experiments on the human brain and the human
mind which you cite count in favor of that claim. There is
no ’sheer presence of the non-conscious’ as it
were, but non-consciousness emerges as a part of the world
in which consciousness and unconsciousness can be
meaningfully opposed. The scientists who note the
unconsciousness of the patient are conscious; the patient
who is informed about his unconsciousness or infers it is
conscious. ….. What is empirically given is thus the mix
of consciousness and unconsciousness. The idea that there
could be an objective world without any consciousness is not
empirically grounded but a philosophical speculation or
spontaneous gut-reaction to certain empirical facts. It
might be right that this world could exist, but that would
need more solid proof than brain


 

offline welt on 2019-07-18 11:05 [#02582598]
Points: 1974 Status: Lurker



... than brain-experiments.
- Was there dead matter before conscious beings emerged?
Once you enter the world as a subject, then yes, it is
objectively true that minerals, gas-planets and so on
existed long before you did. But what is their ultimate
status? Can they be classified as objects if there
are no subjects gazing at whatever it is that shows up as a
gas, minerals, planets when subjects relate to it?

Does the rejection of the metaphysical
subject/object-dinstiction imply solipsism?

- I don’t feel the threat of solipsism because even though
subject and object are conditions of each other I experience
a lot which is definitely not me. The dinstiction between me
and the external world, I lean towards, is that of
control/influence. I can’t control the weather or how
children react to the toys I give them, or how my body
reacts to lead-poisoning - so here something radically
external shows up. But I can control, to some extent, what I
focus my attention on and so on. So that is me. So solipsism
as the thesis that only I exist would be obviously false
then.

Overestimating the importance?
- The dinstction penguins+non-penguins is not perfectly
analogous to the distinction personal+non-personal or
mind+non-mind or subject+non-subject. The fundamental
relationship we experience is that between subject and
object. The penguin has a mind, a personality and I would
also call him a subject (though maybe not a rational one)
that relates to an external world. So as an example of how
the basic relationship of subjectivity-objectivity could be
realized I don’t see why the penguin should be
un-important.
- The subject-object relationship, however, is important
because that’s our ultimate starting point from which all
our experiments, inquiries, gut-reactions and so on start



 

offline welt on 2019-07-18 11:06 [#02582599]
Points: 1974 Status: Lurker



…. I’d actually send you a physical copy of the book
once it’s published in probably May 2020, if you want
one, it’s written in German though, so it might be
difficult to even identify the xltronic posts … but at
least it’s at a pretty hard-cover and very expensive (
one can pre-order it at Amazon.com for $114.99 right now)



 

offline Roger Wilco from It's eBay for Sex on 2019-07-18 14:02 [#02582602]
Points: 379 Status: Regular



Adolf Welt presents the first in a series of "A Zilty Guide
to..." with the introductory theme of Ontology/Metaphysics.
With a foreword by wMw this lavishly tooled edition will add
refinement to any drawing room, especially when collected
alongside forthcoming volumes by epicmegatrack and larn.


 


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