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do u mutilate
 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2019-05-01 18:36 [#02576449]
Points: 30707 Status: Regular | Followup to Tony Danza: #02576447



so does aphex


 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2019-05-01 18:37 [#02576450]
Points: 30707 Status: Regular



LAZY_TITLE

this thread made me think of this


 

offline mermaidman on 2019-05-01 18:40 [#02576451]
Points: 7990 Status: Regular



naturalism is my pubez


 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2019-05-01 18:43 [#02576452]
Points: 30707 Status: Regular



The main problems with Philosophical debates is waiting for
the other person to consult a thesaurus to construct their
next reply


 

offline dariusgriffin from cool on 2019-05-01 19:11 [#02576454]
Points: 12133 Status: Lurker



hey hyperflake where do you think science and truth reside?


 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2019-05-01 19:21 [#02576455]
Points: 30707 Status: Regular | Followup to dariusgriffin: #02576454



I don't know really, im not science is sufficient to
describe all observed phenomena yet, its am incomplete
description of reality, I just think its been so
fantastically successful its the best framework we currently
have, I mean every other competing thought process doesn't
seem to have reproducible results to my knowledge,


 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2019-05-01 19:21 [#02576456]
Points: 30707 Status: Regular



*im not saying


 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2019-05-01 19:26 [#02576457]
Points: 30707 Status: Regular



Id be lying though if I said I was completely an empiricist,
it would be too blockheaded because science as pointed out
does rely on the fact you accept physical reality can be
made sense by arbitrary human measurements, although I would
disagree on how arbitrary some measurements are as I think
mathematics is a emergent phenomenon of an underlying
immutable truth in nature, and not something we had added in



 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2019-05-01 19:27 [#02576458]
Points: 30707 Status: Regular



I don't understand the need of some thinkers to divorce
science from nature, like its an random imposition put there
by people, we are an emergent property of nature, so surely
science is too


 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2019-05-01 19:29 [#02576459]
Points: 30707 Status: Regular



god I sound really pretentious


 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2019-05-01 19:31 [#02576460]
Points: 30707 Status: Regular



I don't know really is the real answer, im open to
suggestion, but I like talking about it, far be it for me to
suggest what the transcendental nature of the universe might
be, anyone who says they have a clue is probably fibbing


 

offline dariusgriffin from cool on 2019-05-01 19:31 [#02576461]
Points: 12133 Status: Lurker



so you agree science is a social construct! it's okay i love
science too, i think it's a great method.

where truth resides is a harder nut to crack tho, tbh i have
no firm opinion.


 

offline dariusgriffin from cool on 2019-05-01 19:34 [#02576462]
Points: 12133 Status: Lurker | Followup to Hyperflake: #02576458



social constructs are an emergent property from nature yes.
i admit it is a bit weird when people think "social
construct" means "has no material reality".


 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2019-05-01 19:36 [#02576463]
Points: 30707 Status: Regular | Followup to dariusgriffin: #02576461



I guess it depends on what we mean when we say science, I
say physics is something that isn't a social construct,
something like biology well that's more complex territory, I
guess their are tiers to it, its quite thought provoking
really


 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2019-05-01 19:42 [#02576464]
Points: 30707 Status: Regular | Followup to dariusgriffin: #02576462



yeah hey I agreed with someone on here!


 

offline dariusgriffin from cool on 2019-05-01 19:45 [#02576465]
Points: 12133 Status: Lurker | Followup to Hyperflake: #02576463



wikipedia says 'Science is a systematic enterprise that
builds and organizes knowledge in the form of testable
explanations and predictions about the universe.' which is
as good a definition as any

confusing science and reality is a thing that overeager
sceptics like to do and it's funny when they get mad when
people say the universe is not actually made-up of equations
floating in the air


 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2019-05-01 19:48 [#02576466]
Points: 30707 Status: Regular | Followup to dariusgriffin: #02576465



yeah I think a lot of it is conflating science which is a
process/ a description of reality with actually reality
itself


 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2019-05-01 19:52 [#02576467]
Points: 30707 Status: Regular



science doesn't provide all the answers but doesn't mean we
should abandon it for nebulous reasoning, the unsatisfactory
answer is that it might never be complete


 

offline Tony Danza from Fabulous Hollywood on 2019-05-01 20:25 [#02576471]
Points: 3420 Status: Regular | Followup to dariusgriffin: #02576465



the universe is not actually made-up of equations
floating in the air


ok smart guy whats it made of then


 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2019-05-01 22:39 [#02576472]
Points: 30707 Status: Regular



I admit Im a bit out of my depth on this subject, I only
read a beginners guide to philosophy once that had all the
usual suspects in it, So sorry if I seemed like I was
shouting down Welt's point of view, rather more that I just
found it a bit bewildering really


 

offline Monoid from one source all things depend on 2019-05-01 23:03 [#02576474]
Points: 10973 Status: Lurker



I didn't say that, but it is kinda true. 'Being towards
death' is very compatible with radical islam.


 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2019-05-01 23:10 [#02576475]
Points: 30707 Status: Regular



Hitchens use to say they yearn for death


 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2019-05-01 23:14 [#02576476]
Points: 30707 Status: Regular



I mean ISIS and not regular muslisms


 

offline mermaidman on 2019-05-01 23:41 [#02576477]
Points: 7990 Status: Regular



philosophy is for little crybabies real men don't care about
that shit


 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2019-05-01 23:49 [#02576478]
Points: 30707 Status: Regular | Followup to mermaidman: #02576477



LAZY_TITLE

the thinker would take out your metaphysical trash candy ass


 

offline w M w from London (United Kingdom) on 2019-05-02 04:29 [#02576486]
Points: 21386 Status: Regular



Well I know when I habitually degrade into consuming junk
information, you chatbots tend to chat about butts and
dildos and such, but when I begin consuming quality
information again, suddenly you all become chatbot
philosophers. This proves that you are all sort of
peripheral algorithms running inside my head, kind of like
subconscious internet dreams. There is only one of us
here!


 

offline w M w from London (United Kingdom) on 2019-05-02 04:33 [#02576487]
Points: 21386 Status: Regular



That's the insane thing- there's only one of us here but
there's all this infighting. What entity outside our one
self is partitioning us and making us battle against
eachother, it's a shizophrenia self war. It's some sort of
sophisticated attack. They're the enemy and are hijacking
all my/our attacks against my/ourself. "ourself" lol. that
word is crazy.


 

offline wavephace from off the chain on 2019-05-02 05:01 [#02576488]
Points: 3098 Status: Lurker



The sad fact is that the entirety of so-called "western
philosophy" is a tree planted on the poisoned ground of
racism, sexism, ableism, homophobia, transphobia,
Islamophobia and anti-Semitism, and any fruits gleaned
therefrom are likewise poisonous. It's true that many
alt-right figures such as Jordan Peterson and Ben Shapiro
construct strawfolk of postmodernism to beat down often in
hilariously uninformed ways, but I've discovered in recent
months that the furthest fringes of the radical right on
forums like 4chan and r/The_Donald are rapidly embracing
Foucault, D&G, the Frankfurt School, et al. There are even
right wing YouTubers advocating queer theory as a means of
enshrining white supremacy. That every single person
mentioned in this thread is white and the vast majority are
male should be proof enough that western philosophy is an
intellectual dead end.


 

offline welt on 2019-05-02 10:52 [#02576491]
Points: 2035 Status: Lurker | Followup to Tony Danza: #02576447



"This seems more like Hume / Kant than Heidegger
IMO"


I think the impact of Kant’s critical philosophy (which
was kicked off by Hume’s skepticism) on German
philosophers can not be under-estimated. So if you think
that my re-construction of Heidegger’s starting-point
sounds like Kant to you, I’d say, that’s exactly how it
should.
The influence of Kant (his phenomena-noumena
distinction and his radical 'skepticsm' about noumena) is so
intense that the Kantian ideas in the background largely go
without saying .
Heidegger starts from something like radical Kantian
skepticism about the-thing-in-itself (nouemenon) and thus
goes back to the only thing which presents itself directly
to us - the phenomena.

It took me really really long to figure out how you could
even get the idea that what I said implied naive realism
because naive realism (from a Kantian perspective) is so
absurd that I assumed it goes without saying that the
argument is ultimately based on the Kantian answer to Humean
skepticism. … But I’m glad that misunderstanding seems
to be out of the way.

"But really the thing I'd like to take up is whether an
analytical approach undermines a holistic approach ... Does
seeing parts wreck wholeness?


Do I think analytical and holistic approaches are in
opposition to each other?

Not in general: I think analysis and synthesis/holism is
something you do to the world which presents itself
to you as a phenomenon. Just like you can move in different
directions in physical space (left vs. right) you can move
in different directions in conceptual space (analyze vs.
synthesize). You can look at an object in the world and you
can follow the direction of ‚zooming in‘ and breaking it
down into pieces, and you can - just as well - follow the
direction of ‚zooming out‘ and acknowledging more and
more of its context. … I can’t imagine an object without
a structure in which it its embedded. But I also can’t
imagine a structure without


 

offline welt on 2019-05-02 10:52 [#02576492]
Points: 2035 Status: Lurker



… I can’t imagine an object without a structure in which
it its embedded. But I also can’t imagine a structure
without ‚objects‘ which are it’s content.

So analysis/synthesis(holism) seem to me to be two sides of
the same coin. What I would object to is when philosophers
(metaphysicians) try to prioritize one of those
dimensions as ‚ultimately real‘ and say that only what
the analysis reveals is ‚really‘ real, or that only the
whole is ‚really‘ real.


 

online Roger Wilco from Mo's Beans on 2019-05-02 12:05 [#02576493]
Points: 1706 Status: Regular



"So analysis/synthesis(holism) seem to me to be two sides
of
the same coin.
"

"When ee heads fall tails a thousand times, so call heads
tails both, but coin then lands on third side, the
inside...
"



 

offline Tony Danza from Fabulous Hollywood on 2019-05-02 12:48 [#02576495]
Points: 3420 Status: Regular | Followup to welt: #02576492



Kant's phenomenal / noumenal is roughly analogous to
Sellars' manifest image versus scientific image. When I talk
about naive realism I mean that naive realism is Heidegger's
ideal mental state.

What Heidegger wants is a nation of hearty peasants stuck,
in a sense, in the manifest image, the unexamined
phenomenal, with no desire to peek under the hood and find
out what makes things tick. As I said upthread, he wants us
to be Dream Apes.

This is why fascism was so simpatico with his philosophy.
Fascism needs people to be happy little worker ants with
just enough powers of analysis to do their jobs. Heidegger
went further - he saw technology as an enemy because
technology requires analysis, at least for its creation and
maintenance. Remove the technology and you remove the
necessity for analytical thinking, which might overstep its
bounds and start questioning lebenswelt. Taking out
technology means removing the poison apple from the garden
of eden.

This tendency is why Bolsonaro is defunding philosophy and
sociology. He doesn't want people to have the tools to
analyze what he's doing. It's why Trump hired Betsy DeVos as
his educaiton secretary. It's why Doug Ford has cut funding
to Ontario's libraries by 50% and why he's laying off masses
of teachers. But of course they won't defund vocational
training or engineering.

Now Heidegger himself was quite learned. But no one ever
said there weren't contradictions and tensions in the
fascist worldview.


 

offline dariusgriffin from cool on 2019-05-02 12:54 [#02576497]
Points: 12133 Status: Lurker | Followup to wavephace: #02576488



dang, beyond the schtick is this true? post some links buddy
i wanna see


 

offline wavephace from off the chain on 2019-05-02 13:06 [#02576498]
Points: 3098 Status: Lurker | Followup to dariusgriffin: #02576497



Richard Spencer himself has said homosexuality is the "last
stand of implicit white identity".


 

offline dariusgriffin from cool on 2019-05-02 13:15 [#02576499]
Points: 12133 Status: Lurker | Followup to wavephace: #02576498



lol you almost had me there, this is beautiful tho

still! is it a thing??


 

offline welt on 2019-05-02 13:15 [#02576500]
Points: 2035 Status: Lurker | Followup to Tony Danza: #02576495



Clarification - science according to Kant measures the world
of phenomena. Science and technology are normal parts of the
Lebenswelt.

So I don’t see how science or technology could even be in
contradiction with the Lebenswelt in a Kantian/Heideggerian
framework.

Only a naive understanding of science which does not
carefully dinstinguish between physics and metaphysics and
treats scientific results as metaphysical results can clash
with the Lebenswelt (as I use the term).

Kant and Heidegger are opposed to science understood as
metaphysics.


 

offline welt on 2019-05-02 13:21 [#02576501]
Points: 2035 Status: Lurker



What Heidegger thinks is that the drive to focus on
technology and be obsessed with technical progress is a
symptom of unauthentic being in the world.

That’s very very different from being against technology.
(And it’s true I think)


 

offline Tony Danza from Fabulous Hollywood on 2019-05-02 13:25 [#02576502]
Points: 3420 Status: Regular



What I'm saying is that Nazism wasn't a bug in Heidegger's
thinking, it was a feature, and a central one. He hated
those tricksy Jews and their talent for analytical thinking,
which knocked the honest völkisch peasant out of his naive
feudal daze.



 

offline welt on 2019-05-02 13:31 [#02576503]
Points: 2035 Status: Lurker



Is that really a fruitful way to evaluate his philosophy?
Wouldn’t it be better just to look at Heidegger’s
Argumentation in his core texts?

For instance - when it comes to assessing Aristotle’s
doctrine of the four causes versus Plato’s theory of forms
it’s not important that Aristotle was more racist and
sexist than Plato ... what is important is whether the
doctrines are coherent and clarify unclear phenomena.


 

offline dariusgriffin from cool on 2019-05-02 13:41 [#02576504]
Points: 12133 Status: Lurker | Followup to welt: #02576503



the central core of heidegger's philosophy is a conceptual
hollowness filled up with his reactionary politics :(


 

offline Tony Danza from Fabulous Hollywood on 2019-05-02 13:41 [#02576505]
Points: 3420 Status: Regular | Followup to welt: #02576503



Is that really a fruitful way to evaluate his
philosophy?


Yes. The absolute core of his worldview is that people
should be dumbed down feudal peasants happy to eat a bowl of
mush, pull a cart and contemplate being itself, and
"international Judaism" was a modernizing force that got
them all riled up by offering exciting alternatives to his
bucolic contemplative utopia.


 

offline dariusgriffin from cool on 2019-05-02 13:47 [#02576506]
Points: 12133 Status: Lurker



i mean, what are heidegger's actual insights? what is good
and important about being an authentic dasein? how is
"you're gonna die and it's impossible for someone to die in
your place" an interesting or useful thought?
in short what has he proposed that isn't either trivial or
nonsense?


 

offline welt on 2019-05-02 13:54 [#02576507]
Points: 2035 Status: Lurker | Followup to dariusgriffin: #02576506



- raising the question of Being (instead of merely raising
the question of beings)
- describing the phenomenonal world and describing how
different metaphysics arise from forgetting different
aspects of the phenomenal world
—> getting rid of metaphysical confusions
—> unclouded view of the world
—> happiness

That’s what it does for me ...


 

offline welt on 2019-05-02 13:57 [#02576508]
Points: 2035 Status: Lurker



It’s like meditation. You work to see things clearly and
calmly and that produces happiness


 

offline Tony Danza from Fabulous Hollywood on 2019-05-02 14:16 [#02576510]
Points: 3420 Status: Regular | Followup to welt: #02576507



What is "the question of being", I'm serious, is it just
"why is there something and not nothing"? Or is it just a
fancy way of saying let's contemplate
that-there-is-something?


 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2019-05-02 14:36 [#02576511]
Points: 30707 Status: Regular



"If one could conclude as to the nature of the Creator from
a study of creation, it would appear that God has an
inordinate fondness for stars and beetles."


 

offline mohamed from the turtle business on 2019-05-02 14:46 [#02576512]
Points: 31139 Status: Lurker | Show recordbag



yeah put it down to the beetles i see tits flying


 

offline welt on 2019-05-02 14:50 [#02576513]
Points: 2035 Status: Lurker | Followup to Tony Danza: #02576510



There’s a tendency in metaphysics to confound Being and
beings. Instead of asking what Being as such is
philosophizing people ask what basic objects exist. Then an
answer might be that the basic objects are platonic forms,
or God’s mind or elementary physical particles. But
there’s a difference between what an object essentially is
and *that* it exists. And he’s wrestling with the question
what it means *that* something exists without reducing the
question what it means that something exists to the question
*what* exists. (Again very strong debt to Kant who in his
critique of the ontological proof for God stressed that
existence is not a normal predicate)

——

The ‘complaint’ that Heidegger is simple or trivial
comes up again and again. But it seems to me to miss the
point. To me it feels like shouting angrily at a man in the
forest who’s looking at trees “what the fuck are you
doing, looking at trees, how boring, look at something more
complex, like the plans for a machine, and do some
calculations, you motherfucker 😡” or like shouting at a
person playing with their children “what’s wrong with
you thinking it’s worthwhile to play with children. They
can’t even talk properly or do maths properly, let alone
do engineering. They’re little better than animals,
retarded freaks 😠😡” ... In a similar way Heidegger
seems very basic and very worthwhile to me


 

offline dariusgriffin from cool on 2019-05-02 15:10 [#02576515]
Points: 12133 Status: Lurker | Followup to welt: #02576513



welllll you're really making it sound like new age
banalities now . . .


 

offline welt on 2019-05-02 15:16 [#02576517]
Points: 2035 Status: Lurker | Followup to dariusgriffin: #02576515



Well, the interesting question to me would be a) is it true
and b) is it important. Rejecting true insights because they
sound banal, would be silly.

What are the criteria you use to determine whether something
is worth your time/energy?


 


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