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Why does die welt exist?
 

offline fleetmouse from Gorilla Mind Smooth on 2017-05-04 19:36 [#02519044]
Points: 17616 Status: Regular



In the broadest sense - why is there something rather than
nothing, being rather than nonbeing? Primarily directed at
welt, but interested in other replies too.


 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2017-05-04 19:43 [#02519051]
Points: 10572 Status: Addict



LAZY_TITLE


 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2017-05-04 19:45 [#02519052]
Points: 10572 Status: Addict



i suppose there can be no credible answer to this question,
thats what first springs to mind, id have to think about it


 

offline umbroman3 on 2017-05-04 20:02 [#02519059]
Points: 1115 Status: Addict



God made the world in 6 days (quite a popular theory)


 

offline mohamed on 2017-05-04 20:06 [#02519060]
Points: 19681 Status: Addict | Show recordbag



you can be without being


 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2017-05-04 20:08 [#02519062]
Points: 10572 Status: Addict



what do they mean by six days though, who was keeping watch,
when their is no clocks or days yet

why did it take him so long for an omnipresent being, surely
if he is a supreme being it would have existed crystalline
and pure in his mind instantaneously, why 6 days? Is god a
procrastinator?


 

offline umbroman3 on 2017-05-04 20:11 [#02519064]
Points: 1115 Status: Addict



I guess they mean that God can do things instantly but he
spent 6 whole days making the world to be as perfect as
possible


 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2017-05-04 20:14 [#02519065]
Points: 10572 Status: Addict



the way i think about a supreme being is that he has total
control of time, matter, intellectual capacity is infinite
so he could make it perfect the instant of conception





 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2017-05-04 20:15 [#02519066]
Points: 10572 Status: Addict



he is the perfect, supreme being, all powerful all mighty, 6
days is practically an eternity for god, does that suggest
he has limitations and he isn't omnipotent?


 

offline RussellDust on 2017-05-04 21:00 [#02519106]
Points: 8026 Status: Regular



Why did the Big Bang happen, did it happen, what was there
before TBB, is there always nothing before something?
Chemical reactions, growth, decay, patterns... A design,
MORALS MORALS MORALS

Nothing, in it's concept, barely exists.

Alien covenant will tell you everything, fleetmouse.

Why is fleetmouse our resident pop philosopher? Why is
everything so balanced? Why does the water fit the puddle?
Because of AMPI MAX.

I'm just dumb. There's this idea the sun is massive and far,
far away. I just see a small thing in the sky that doesn't
seem too distant, because I can see it in the sky. It must
be really warm in space. Whatever.


 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2017-05-04 21:04 [#02519108]
Points: 10572 Status: Addict



just think when you type something on your keyboard that is
gravitation-ally imprinted on the fabric of space time and
encoded for eternity, but we will never be able to decode it
cos its planck length or something, but it might be massive
at the end of the universe cos of the expansion, massive
waves that some alien is picking up seemingly unintelligible
messages from your keyboard


 

offline RussellDust on 2017-05-04 21:06 [#02519110]
Points: 8026 Status: Regular



someone will bring up the multiverse. God always creeps up
first though. I think I'm a female thetan trapped in the
male body of a human. Luckily people know how to help, and
they're very kind.


 

offline RussellDust on 2017-05-04 21:06 [#02519111]
Points: 8026 Status: Regular



Knew it!


 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2017-05-04 21:06 [#02519112]
Points: 10572 Status: Addict



that would be the ultimate irony wouldnt it, tom cruise is
actually god


 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2017-05-04 21:08 [#02519115]
Points: 10572 Status: Addict | Followup to RussellDust: #02519111



i dont believe in the multiverse its a stupid concept, i
believe our universe is more like a moebius strip with more
moebius strips coming off it, in an infinite foamy froth of
universes wrapped up inside a moebius strip, like links in a
chainmail or something


 

offline RussellDust on 2017-05-04 21:11 [#02519120]
Points: 8026 Status: Regular



By the way I find fleetmouse to be a clever person. I like
to rib him as he does me...errr, never mind, he just gets
annoying when he uses academy speak. It's not always
necessary to use tons of words to say something deep or
complicated, even though he expressed clearly in the other
thread that simple words are too simple, because they're all
at first massive concepts. Of course God came up. The
summing up. Btw this is epicmegatracks posting from Easter
island.


 

offline RussellDust on 2017-05-04 21:11 [#02519121]
Points: 8026 Status: Regular | Followup to Hyperflake: #02519115



I bet there's a hyperflake somewhere that doesn't agree.


 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2017-05-04 21:13 [#02519123]
Points: 10572 Status: Addict



what irritates me about that theory is by definition there
are an infinite number of variations of me having a better
time of it. then again there are an infinite number who are
having a less good time, although thats hard to believe


 

offline RussellDust on 2017-05-04 21:15 [#02519125]
Points: 8026 Status: Regular | Followup to Hyperflake: #02519123



It's depressing, as is the concept of reincarnation.

I think it was professor Sheldon Cooper that said there
could be a hyperflake made of toast farting Mozart
symphonies out of a rectum that looks very much like one of
those small inflatable boats.


 

offline umbroman3 on 2017-05-04 21:24 [#02519141]
Points: 1115 Status: Addict



remember the tv show sliders?


 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2017-05-04 21:26 [#02519142]
Points: 10572 Status: Addict | Followup to umbroman3: #02519141



yes with the bearded welsh guy and they would always flush
themselves round a ubend into a new reality


 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2017-05-04 21:28 [#02519143]
Points: 10572 Status: Addict | Followup to RussellDust: #02519125



im probably the same in every reality except for one minor
detail, like in all the other universes i have slightly less
nosehair, it really could be that prosaic


 

offline umbroman3 on 2017-05-04 21:28 [#02519144]
Points: 1115 Status: Addict



the first two seasons were amazing

every time they found a new world that had similarities with
the real world


 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2017-05-04 21:29 [#02519146]
Points: 10572 Status: Addict | Followup to umbroman3: #02519144



yeah, i still think they should have started every episode
coming out of the warp and saying "oh fuck not again, this
is beyond a joke now"


 

offline RussellDust on 2017-05-04 21:33 [#02519148]
Points: 8026 Status: Regular | Followup to Hyperflake: #02519143



Or you reincarnate as yourself all the time.


 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2017-05-04 21:34 [#02519153]
Points: 10572 Status: Addict



yes like bill murray


 

offline welt on 2017-05-04 21:37 [#02519159]
Points: 1582 Status: Regular



To me at least 3 different basic ways of replying seem
open.

The answers are very rough sketches.

[1] - Assuming the question is well-formed

You’d first have to get an idea what a possible answer
could even look like.

It’s obvious what the answer can NOT look like. It can’t
be a causal explanation of the form „X because of Y“
(The watch exists because of the watchmaker; honey exists
because bees produce them, …), because that pushes the
question further ad infinitum.

So if there can’t be a Cause why there is something rather
than nothing, what is there to find out? It seems to me that
2 explanatory options emerge. (1) Something just sprang up
randomly and chaotically from nothingness. (2) Something
exists necessarily.

Answer 1 seems a bit dubious because of the immense order in
nature. Even if you don’t want to posit an intelligent
creator, it seems wild to imagine that an orderly universe
sprang into existence from mere chance. Think of classical
Darwinian evolution theory - according to it complexity
evolves without a creator, but also not based on mere
chance: The orderly mechanism of selection does the trick.
So we have no actual examples of order evolving from mere
chaos. …. Even if you claim that outside our universe an
infinite number of universes exists, the majority of which
are chaotic, and we just happen to inhabit one of the
universes in the the infinitely small number of orderly
universes, you seem to re-introduce basic order through the
back-door. Because there seems to be some orderly process
which realizes all possible universes.

What about Answer 2? Does it even explain anything to say
that something exists necessarily? Sometimes it seems so.
Why does the logical law of identity hold .. why is
“A=A“ true? Well, it’s true because it’s necessarily
true. Why is „3+5=8“ true? It’s true because it’s
necessarily true. If you know what „3“ means, know what
„5“ means, know what „=„ means and know what „8“
means, then you know that


 

offline welt on 2017-05-04 21:38 [#02519161]
Points: 1582 Status: Regular



What about Answer 2? Does it even explain anything to say
that something exists necessarily? Sometimes it seems so.
Why does the logical law of identity hold .. why is
“A=A“ true? Well, it’s true because it’s necessarily
true. Why is „3+5=8“ true? It’s true because it’s
necessarily true. If you know what „3“ means, know what
„5“ means, know what „=„ means and know what „8“
means, then you know that necessarily „3+5=8“ is true.

So based on this ROUGH MODEL, you could infer that something
rather than nothing exists because there’s a necessity -
vaguely similar to logical or mathematical necessity - due
to which Being itself exists.

(It strikes me now that maybe (probably) this is the reason
why Plato thought that mathematics almost by itself created
the universe - it’s the best example of necessary truths
we have. (Even though some question the necessity of
mathematics of course).)

[2] - Maybe the question is ill-formed and non-sensical as
it stands

Maybe the question „Why is there something rather than
nothing“ is like „Is RusselDust or Hyperflake more
identical?“ - a question that is a grammatically correct
English sentence but doesn’t mean anything, because it’s
ill-formed.

But then you have to explain why human beings are in the
grip of such strong illusions, which make such questions
appear meaningful and important.

[3] - Maybe some philosophical questions don’t require
theoretical but practical responses

Maybe the fact that you can ask yourself why there exists
something rather than nothing is a call for action. It tells
you that you should live your life in a particular way. It
tells you that you should live your life in such a way that
Being doesn’t seem like a theoretical problem that needs
to be explained and accounted for. It’s a hint for you
that there’s a mode of Being-in-the-world in which Being
becomes „self-explanatory“ and a cause of celebration
rather than explanation.



 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2017-05-04 21:49 [#02519168]
Points: 10572 Status: Addict



^ are you Immanuel Kant


 

offline RussellDust on 2017-05-04 22:12 [#02519178]
Points: 8026 Status: Regular | Followup to Hyperflake: #02519168



He reminds me of an old member here who was studying
philosophy. My god.

But he does looks the part.


 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2017-05-04 22:14 [#02519180]
Points: 10572 Status: Addict | Followup to RussellDust: #02519178



yes i hope i didnt offending welt for having a serious
conversation, I joke because i cant think of a decent enough
reply, they have quite clearly thought about this a great
deal


 

offline welt on 2017-05-04 22:20 [#02519187]
Points: 1582 Status: Regular | Followup to Hyperflake: #02519180



No way could that offend me.

It is true, though, that like Kant I've got Prussian /
Teutonic blood flowing through my veins.


 

offline RussellDust on 2017-05-04 22:20 [#02519188]
Points: 8026 Status: Regular | Followup to Hyperflake: #02519180



I want welt to feel offended.

Anyway, welt, what if answer 1 is happening all the time?
Not in the sense Descartes thought happened though.

How about a surge of energy building up in another dimension
creating another?



 

offline RussellDust on 2017-05-04 22:21 [#02519190]
Points: 8026 Status: Regular



I created you all


 

offline RussellDust on 2017-05-04 22:23 [#02519192]
Points: 8026 Status: Regular



"What about Answer 2? Does it even explain anything to say
that something exists necessarily? Sometimes it seems so.
Why does the logical law of identity hold .. why is
“A=A“ true? Well, it’s true because it’s necessarily

true. Why is „3+5=8“ true? It’s true because it’s
necessarily true. If you know what „3“ means, know what

„5“ means, know what „=„ means and know what „8“

means, then you know that necessarily „3+5=8“ is true.
"

These are just coping mechanisms.



 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2017-05-04 22:24 [#02519193]
Points: 10572 Status: Addict | Followup to welt: #02519187



ive got b type


 

offline welt on 2017-05-04 22:26 [#02519194]
Points: 1582 Status: Regular



Well, if something exists necessarily, it exists independent
of temporal becoming

... So, yes, that raises the question how that which is
necessarily existing relates to the temporal world. ... I'm
not sure how I would solve that issue at the moment.

But I'm not 100% sure if I'm getting at what you have in
mind exactly



 

offline welt on 2017-05-04 22:26 [#02519195]
Points: 1582 Status: Regular | Followup to RussellDust: #02519190



I thank you for it


 

offline welt on 2017-05-04 22:28 [#02519196]
Points: 1582 Status: Regular | Followup to welt: #02519194



That was supposed to be a reply to [#02519188]


 

offline welt on 2017-05-04 22:29 [#02519197]
Points: 1582 Status: Regular



I'll drink some Guiness Stout now


 

offline RussellDust on 2017-05-04 22:47 [#02519200]
Points: 8026 Status: Regular | Followup to welt: #02519197



I'll have my final beer of the night, a spliff, and a little
chloral hydrate syrup.

I was just thinking about this quote from someone saying
there's a tribe in South America that have no concept of a
future or past. In their language it's all about the
present, yet they can talk about what they will do or have
done.


 

offline RussellDust on 2017-05-04 22:48 [#02519201]
Points: 8026 Status: Regular | Followup to welt: #02519194



What I find interesting in all this is us trying to cope.


 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2017-05-04 22:51 [#02519202]
Points: 10572 Status: Addict | Followup to RussellDust: #02519201



have you ever read any Jorge Luis Borges, Russell?


 

offline RussellDust on 2017-05-04 22:51 [#02519203]
Points: 8026 Status: Regular



Where is fleetmouse? Surely little mouse is in bed and mrs
mouse is watching reruns of House.


 

offline RussellDust on 2017-05-04 22:53 [#02519205]
Points: 8026 Status: Regular | Followup to Hyperflake: #02519202



Know of him, and on this embarrassingly-never ending list
of stuff to check out. What do you recommend?



 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2017-05-04 22:56 [#02519206]
Points: 10572 Status: Addict



his short story collection, book of sand, library of babel
etc..

Tlön, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius

Told in a first-person narrative by Borges himself, the
story focuses on the author's discovery of the doubly
fictional world of Tlön, of which inhabitants are
completely idealistic and live imaginative lives. Relatively
long for Borges (approximately 5,600 words), the story is a
work of speculative fiction. One of the major themes of
Tlön, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius is that ideas ultimately
manifest themselves in the physical world and the story is
generally viewed as a parabolic discussion of Berkeleyan
idealism, and to some degree as a protest against
totalitarianism.


 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2017-05-04 22:58 [#02519207]
Points: 10572 Status: Addict



my fave



 

offline RussellDust on 2017-05-04 23:00 [#02519208]
Points: 8026 Status: Regular



Ok, sweet. Thanks.


 

offline RussellDust on 2017-05-04 23:02 [#02519209]
Points: 8026 Status: Regular | Followup to Hyperflake: #02519206



Ok hang on, what do you mean by "doubly fictional"?


 

offline Hyperflake from Wirral (United Kingdom) on 2017-05-04 23:04 [#02519210]
Points: 10572 Status: Addict



sorry i copy and pasted that bit it was a quote


 


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