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Well than check out the 'anti german' critique of mainstream leftism. |
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why don't you go make research about cancer |
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funny that you mention the anti-germans. i even went to a seminar by some anti-german group once (a jewish friend made me go). ... i think the anti-germans quite often criticize the right things (such as the hard left's toleration/glorification of militant islam); but i don't agree with the theoretical foundation of their criticisms and i don't agree with their final aim of a communist society (which they supposedly still have in view somehow). ...anyhow .. maybe i'll go to that event on heidegger, which is adevertised on the page you linked. |
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so welt, do you live in kreuzberg or neukolln? :) come and live out towards marzahn way, it sounds like you'd love it. Don't act like their isn't a right wing presence in berlin, it was only a year and a half ago that a nazi curb stomped some random on one of their little marches. btw, I don't think anyone on the hard left is glorifying militant islam, you've got that wrong (and also i doubt anyone on the 'hard left' is talking about 'communist' societies either, that's some relic from the pre-'68). |
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not quite @kreuzberg / neukölln. well ... of course i'm exaggerating somehwat .. however, i think if, for instance, a person like judith butler says "Yes, understanding Hamas, Hezbollah as social movements that are progressive, that are on the Left, that are part of a global Left, is extremely important" that can be called a glorification of militant islam, even if she then tries to backpaddle by saying that there are aspect of hamas and hezbollah that need to be criticized. and of course left-wingers these days use the term communism: proof is for instance here: and of course i don't seriously deny the presence of neonazis in berlin. i considered it obvious that a statement such as "everyone in berlin is a dogmatic left-winger" can't be taken at face-value. especially when talking about a city such as berlin. |
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i agree with judith butler, hamas is important in the context of the social situation (israel have been crushing palestine for years). I fail to see how this is a glorification - notice how she doesn't mention islam, It has little to do with religion. Since when was 'the left' ever religious? from the early on it has never been - read nietzsche, read bataille. i can't speak for antifa germany, personally i think they are misguided to use the word (though you would have to ask for a definition because this word is so unfocussed now). In the same way you can't generalise the political makeup of berlin, narrower still, you also can't generalise the makeup of the far left. |
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well. i guess you know that hamas means "islamic resistance movement" and that hezbollah means "the party of god". the religious dimension of these groups is explicit and staring right in one's face. so you need to make a convincing case that people's religious motivations are not really about religion and i have not seen a convicting argument for this thesis. … of course there are theories - marx obviously - that argue that religion is nothing but the effect of the economic exploitation of a group of people. but these theories are fragile and i think it's deeply problematic and dangerous to deny "obvious facts" and act as if such a theory were true and unproblematic. i don't quite understand how nietzsche relates to this, though. are you getting at the fact, that religion, according to nietzsche is nothing but will to power and that religion is thus not what it "seems to be"? ... i also am not sure how your statements about the antifa and communism relate to the subject-matter of the discussion. all i said was that i don't agree with the 'anti-germans' insofar as they aim at a communist society (which some anti-german groups explicitly do). .. not more and not less, did i say. |
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Communism can mean many things, for the anti-germans it means a 'materialistic critic' of capitalism and not some ideal society or the soviet/cuban/chinese etc. brand of communism. |
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Communism can mean many things, for the anti-germans it means a 'materialistic critic' of capitalism and not some ideal society or the soviet/cuban/chinese brand of communism. |
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when i talk about obvious facts i refer to first-person-authority. if a person speaks about the contents of his mind it is in general irrational to not believe him. so if hundreds of people claim that they commit acts of violence on the basis of their religious convictions it is irrational to not believe them. |
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well. it's indeed a problem that the term communism is so wishy-washy. .... i guess you're right that the anti-germans in general don't aim for a soviet-style society ... but still .. at that anti-german seminar i attended a fat guy who was wearing an X-Men t-shirt and a guy in dreadlocks were bemoaning the fact that the final aim of a truly just somehow "marxist" society is not in sharp focus for the anti-germans anymore... (that would imply that it's still a driving-force for them) ...anyway ... i don't claim to be an expert on the anti-germanz. |
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I'm pretty sure butler would agree that Hamas is dangerous, but it doesn't mean they don't have an important social function. religion hasn't really been important to the philosophers in the particular lineage which butler sits quite easily into. I see that lineage beginning with nietzsche as he birthed many of the ideas which these writers were developing. (yes i realise i am generalising here.) You could make an argument for Bergson (catholic) but who is really dealing with Bergson's religion nowadays? heh. 'so you need to make a convincing case that people's religious motivations are not really about religion' - not really, i'm just dealing with that butler quote, which in my opinion you are overstating whilst also bringing the entire left movement into the frame (which is unfair since it's a diverse group). |
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What is the 'important social function' of the Hamas? I don't think they have any. |
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Huh? Well if they wouldn't attack and try to destroy Israel, maybe they could live in peace and prosperity with their neighbours. Because the only country in the middle east where the palestinians don't have to live in camps is... Israel |
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That's not logically incorrect and, foremost, an opinion. And you're a troll. |
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I dont think the problem is germans or or jews per say as much as extreme conservatism Right-wing regimes in Israel have been carrying out sustained genocide for decades now |
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why would I? |
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It's per se not per say. |
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Anyone else anti government? |
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"Anyone else anti government?" no. i prefer not to procure my own strategic weapons. |
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most of the time spent in this thread could be better served adopting kttns. |
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Genocide is the totally wrong word. That Israel is also, to some degree, responsible for the current and past situation, should be clear. But they want peace, the hamas probably not. |
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genocide is the totally wrong word? really? Genocide is defined as "the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group" now lets do some math Approximately 1.5 million Palestinian civilians have died since 1948,including the victims of the ethnic cleansing campaigns in the west in 1948-50 and in the east since 1967. Civilian deaths have escalated dramatically in recent years since the zionists developed their obsession with the Palestinian birth-rate,and children are often the target. There is only a small fine for killing a Palestinian in cold blood. It's based on a weapons charge,not murder. To understand the genocidal character of this vile regime,one need only glance at the responses from zionists; at least half advocate or at least imply approval of the killing of non-jews. Adocating genocide is by the way a reportable offence on Y/A. Aproximately 2000 civilian Palestinians are killed each year. If you are jewish and you shoot an 8-year-old Palestinian girl in cold blood,you will have your weapons license revoked for three months and pay a fine equivalent to 50-100 dollars U.S. It's considered by the "government'"to be more or less the same thing as shooting squirrals within city limits with a .22. would be in America. Zionists love to murder Palestinian children and they do it all the time. The military handles the mass-murders. We are not talking about suicide bombers or militants; those figures fall into another category. I am referring to wanton killing of civilians. Source(s): Pappe,Itan. "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine" (Oxford,2003). Amnesty Internation Annual Report (years 2000-2007). Hass,Amira. "Drinking the Waters at Gaza" (1996). |
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Your critic is very one sided and you also use anti-semitic stereotypes. Under these circumstances a debate is useless. |
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haven't read a post, but monoid should go to the disco-tek |
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allahu akbar, mohamed speaketh the truth |
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kinda feel sorry for him now parading his mug on all the newspapers was not a good idea cos he looks pretty fucking harmless in the flesh. has nice eyes. not trolling. |
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True that the critic is one sided, but it is the side that rarely gets an airing. The allegations of anti-semitism has long been the short circuit that has bypassed much of inquiry and investigation into this tragic situation. The issue here is the state sanctioned extremism on the part of the zionist government. The sad thing is that the Palestinians I have met had nothing but priase for average Jewish citizens of Israel. The told me the sad and ironic stories of streams of jewish doctors rushing to gaza to help the victims of their governments bombing, shelling, rocket raids minutes after the attacks. A debate was not the intention, have neither the time nor the energy to engage in one. |
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tldr he's lush |
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That 'side' is very present, well at least in the german media and in the 'mainstream left'. Israel is one of the most hated countries in the world, and considered one of the biggest enemies of world peace. Yes, there are extremists in Israel, yet still, it is the country in the mid-east where people enjoy the most freedoms. |
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the jews have always been hated..it's their destiny. |
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It is not their destiny, but as long as the reasons for anti-semitism: state, capitalism, ideology etc. exist, they sure need a their own state. This is what the anti-imperialist left does not understand. |
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so i take it that what you're saying is this: i, welt, can't say that philosophers, who build on the ideas of nietzsche, tolerate or glorify violence carried out in the name of religon, because for this philosophical tradition religion-as-such is not an important driving force in world-events. if that's what you say i'd reply: it's precisely the problem of this tradition, that it can't take religion-as-such seriously. we live in a world in which roughly 90% of all human beings identify themselves as religious (it's easy to forget that, if one lives in western europe) and the nietzschean philosophical tradition can't take them seriously. that leads up to the point i was making:. .. i didn't mean to say, that intellectuals like butler "glorify" islam, but they glorify violence which is carried out also on the basis of religious beliefs and at the same time fail to appreciate the religious dimension of this violence . she glorifies it, because she implies that the violence is really part of a progressive struggle for liberation. ... well, i guess, if you believe - like butler does - that there are no human subjects, that the autonomous self is a mere illusion, that there's "no doer behind the deed" - then you can even interpret an islamic fundamentalist as a lefty progressive, because there's only the deed of the violent act and there's "no subject behind the act of violence". .... but judith butler's theories are not exactly watertight and i don't believe her. .... then you made another point and said, that religion isn't important for the left as a political movement. ... i wouldn't agree. in many aspects left/communists beliefs are similar to religious beliefs. michail rykling wrote a good book about it: |
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we all need to become humans and all problems are solved. |
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I was trying to explain that I think you assumed something from her quote. Regardless of religion - Hamas is important. I don't think she was advocating the religious aspects of that group in the first place. I can't really comment on butler extensively because I haven't taken the time to study her (and I do believe in an autonomous self to some degree). But I think this larger philosophical tradition following on from nietzsche did engage religion - when you are dealing with modes of thought, how could religion not be part of that? Additionally, There are plenty of secondary literature that deal directly with this philosophical tradition in regards to religion (for instance: Deleuze and Religion / Foucault and Religion etc.) we've already discussed that many leftists movements don't even think of using the word communism. I know that there is animosity towards those who do use that word. Generally speaking, religion isn't important to the left movement (just read!) But whether the aspects of leftist thought mirror religious thought is another question, and a good question, a question everyone should ask themselves (because I think the answer might be yes, regardless of political belief - religious thought/language is institutional). |
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well...you tell me to "just read". that's what i do. you wrote: "religion hasn't really been important to the philosophers in the particular lineage which butler sits quite easily into. " obviously this sentence is very vague. in what aspects is religion not important to these philosophers? you don't say that explicitly so if one replies to you one has to interpret in some way. then you wrote: "Generally speaking, religion isn't important to the left movement" ... so in what aspects is it important, in which is it not? you write vague sentences. maybe they are clear to you, but they are not clear to someone who - naturally - can't read your mind. ... obviously one has to be vague to a certain extent if one writes short posts on a messageboard, but don't act as if what you're writing is clear, when it's obviously not clear and vague. ha! |
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anyway, to get back on topic and sum it up and draw a conclusion: my point was that i think it does't make sense to ignore hamas' and hezbollah's religious dimension, because religious ideas are a basic driving-force in human beings and they can therefore not be ignored. i'm happy if you disagree with me, but i think i've got good grounds for my view. |
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I'm vague because I'm uncomfortable with generalising a diverse group and that is what the left movement is in my experience. I don't see the point in saying the left is this or the left did that, that'd be an injustice. I'm also being general because I don't think you can condense the views of these philosophers (who were already possibly unjustly grouped together.) I agree that religion is a driving force. But the original discussion was about what butler said, and I think you misunderstood her. It's clear that Hamas is very overtly religious, but it still has more than just a religious dimension, that can be proved by their actions (see my earlier link), even if these actions were done in the name of religion! Whatever you choose call that other dimension, it is important in the context of the conflict. I think this is what she champions. |
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Hamas is a batshit insane and violent organization that has no social function other than making the life of palestinians and israelis miserable. Communism is not a religion, it only shares a few similarities with some religion but it is not the same. |
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You seem to be implying that if hamas wasn't there everything would be perfect! hamas were elected by palestinians, and they are batshit insane and violent but they do run schools, hospitals, universities and occasionally alleviate the sanctions put in place by an aggressive western backed regional superpower (that's israel, just in case i'm being too vague) |
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Just because they were elected democraticly, doesn't mean they ARE democratic. It means they are a problem, and a true democracy does not have to tolerate this. They build schools and hospitals which they use to recruit new members. The U.N. employs over 30.000 people in palestine. The hamas is not needed especially if they use most of their money to buy weapons, to 'destroy Israel'. |
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*sbeaketh |
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To me, organizations like Hamas look quite a lot like corrupt unions in bloated state-owned companies, which are using their ignorant and often truly mistreated members mostly for personal gain. I'm very much for unions in general, but when there is an opportunity for blackmail in a market with no elasticity (and let me make an offhand assumption that such is the case in the market for real estate in middle east) cynical people can and will use the opportunity to use the quiet desperation of the many and moral outrage from outside to gain power and influence. Also, if they use religion as a part of their toolkit, they instantly gain +10 despicability in my eyes. That is not to say that Israeli politics and military don't suffer from an over-representation (or is it?) of crazy religious and right-wing fucks. Also, I don't think nowadays it's fair to say that the politically correct narrative in which any remark about the Palestinian ordeal is deemed antisemitic has any more presence in the public than the reactionary one in which the Jews are seen as using the antisemitic label to discredit critics. In my whole life I haven't personally met a person who would exhibit non-ambivalent feelings about the Israeli approach to dealing with the Palestinians. Sorry for the unions comparison, it's just local affairs leaking into my set of connotations. Also, sorry for the clunky language. I haven't written any serious note in English for a long long while. |
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oh yeah, bin Laden, I forgot. Two conclusions: -I feel sorry for Obama. I bet that before he became president, the possibility of having to order an unlawful killing on foreign soil was his worst nightmare. -With allies like that, who needs enemies? |
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well, that's exactly how i understood judith butler. but i don't think one can abstract a truly progressive dimension from a militant, islamic organization. (since blowing a hole in a fence to stop starvation is not an action which implies that hamas aims for a "just and free society" i can't accept such actions as prooving their progressive dimension). that's why i polemically said judith butler "glorifies" islam. of course she dosn't see herself as gloryfing islam. but she downplays the religious side. she said hamas and hizbollah ARE (!) part of the left. to me (and many others) that's unacceptable. ... and on generalizations. i've got a more lax attitude towards generalizations, because there's nothing wrong with general statements as such. general statements are rough and approximate statements and can never be the final truth on a matter. as long as one keeps that in mind [many don't do so, though, sadly] there's no harm in general statements. .... i don't think you can even speak without using general statements. so if generalizing is unfair, then using language is unfair. but it would be absurd to not speak anymore because of that. |
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100 |
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