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 (nobody)...and 259 guests Last 5 registered Oplandisks nothingstar N_loop yipe foxtrotromeo Browse members... |
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some pretty amazingly good news for a change |
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"Around $300,000 was found in various bank accounts belonging to Ellis—most of which was thought to be donations made to him by the site’s users." KRELM |
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Great, i wonder what happened to the users that were arrested? does that mean he can start oink up again now? even tho i do not know what oink is. |
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cool, i was thinking about setting up a little server/client type thing where people can trade beat car stereos or other stolen goods online. if they want to trade illegal porn with minors or whatever its ok too, i won't be hosting or selling anything myself and i am sure not the police, so *throws hands up in the air* don't look at me i dunno what people are gonna do. i just want to practice writing software and make this cool little client so people can network and have a good time. i'll just put a few google ads up, collect some extra income and let the thing run itself. i realize the popo might try to come down on me, but i'll be a hero once i beat the rap cause i didn't even do nuthin wrong. |
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*psst* oink was a private site with no ads and never asked for donations at all. any money that guy got was solely because people wanted to give it to him. donations got you no special treatment, no status change, nuthin. |
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well i'm just talking about what i'm going to do with my thing. i'll admit i'm still working out the details, but i think this guy really set the precedent and paved the way for us up n' comers. |
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that's not true, a lot of people donated for the two invites you got for it furthermore the site didn't have a meter like xltronic (and working) |
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check up on your shit dude, you be wrong. |
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300.00 was just given to him? where can i find those people? |
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is anyone else a little disturbed by this trend that piracy is suddenly okay? i download media, but i have no allusions that what im doing should be legal or IS legal. bittorrent tracker owners end up running a legal server because of a loophole. the front end website to the tracker clearly facilitates piracy of copyrighted material, so why cant they be busted for that? and why is everyone okay with piracy? how do users expect labels to release music if nobody pays for it? how are labels supposed to survive or put the effort in doing fancy digipak releases for thousands of euros? if everybody admitted that piracy was wrong but they didnt give a shit, it would be a different story. but this idea that they have a RIGHT to do it is pissing me off. and now its uber trendy to be pro-piracy too. if all they want is a free market for art, set up a website where artists can submit their art willingly, stealing art from people who put it up for sale is stealing, and i dont care two shits about the "its not stealing its copying" logic. NO |
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k so i'd forgotten about the invites. sure, it would've been nice to have limited donations to just hosting costs, but is this what he was on trial for? are people complaining that he's making money from being a "pirate" (or pirate facilitator) or that he is being a pirate in the first place? if he had not made any extra cash, would you have a different tone? but neither legality nor morality are the issue at hand anymore are they? the fact is that piracy happens, is going to happen, and is so widespread that it cannot not happen. within days of oink being raided by the interpol, what.cd and waffles.fm had popped up, and i can only assume that the precedent this has set forth will deter any further busts on p2p sites. so what's left? the way i see it, the idea of ownership or information itself will change. since the first book sales, the cost of distribution has been a significant factor in the final pricing. printing, binding, and shipping tons of paper costs a lot of money (as does cutting vinyl, packaging cd's, etc.). however, the cost of distribution has now dropped to a near-zero value (see FREE by chris anderson of wired mag) and nobody knows how to deal with it. once a product (that is, information/data) exists, it doesn't cost a thing to send it to every person on the planet, and distributors are left clinging to a raft which can now hold far fewer people, acting like children, kicking and fighting with others for space on that ever shrinking raft instead of trying to find something else to keep them afloat. |
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also keep in mind that every new form of distribution has been met with the same kind of disdain. most famously, souza made an appeal to the gramophone producers, claiming that making music available in recorded form takes the soul away from the performance. he believed once you could have music by someone else in your living room, people would stop playing music themselves, and then suddenly the production of new music would disappear altogether, with everyone left listening to the same tired recordings for all the years to come. but that's not what happened. people continued making music themselves, even when the perceived cost to produce it (in this case, the effort required was learning to play guitar, then picking it up and strumming the strings and decreased to simply picking up a record and placing the needle on it) drastically diminished. the fact is that the way we think of art in relation to ownership has changed before, and it is changing now - not changed, changing. this is still a process in motion. there's no "right" to piracy - it's something that's happening, and it's society's/the market place's job to find out how it will adjust. and last but not least, let me say that any of those bitches who suddenly discover people downloading their music for free and subsequently stop making music should have never done made it in the first place. art is supposed to be an expression of humanity, not a commodity to be traded for bread, and thankfully i think this is a notion which we are finally moving away from. kill the rockstars, save the dj! |
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oh yeah, and i spend probably $40 a week going to shows, so don't try to say i don't pay my artists. |
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art is supposed to be an expression of humanity, not a commodity to be traded for bread that's just your opinion just like the notion that artists should only be payed for the physical work of performing and not the intellectual work of writing music and all the opinions of these kids who think they know how the world works and now unfortunately have the power to act accordingly to it (not necessarily you hedphukkerr) |
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"there's no "right" to piracy - it's something that's happening, and it's society's/the market place's job to find out how it will adjust. " And with this the debate is already over. You're now saying piracy shouldn't have morals nor legality attached to it. Well the same could be said for anything. Why attach morality or legality to murder? Rape? Slavery? We do it because we HAVE morality. And legality. Labels and artists put in physical work to make the releases happen, why is that any less justified means to make money than any other work? We enjoy our bed, our food, our transportation, and we enjoy our media. Morally speaking, pirates are in the wrong when they deny to pay for a product that cost money but rather steal the product. I feel society will hit a real slammer when media no longer has centralized points of distribution, and when movie companies no longer can afford big budgets. People still expect high production qualities, yet don't want to pay the price. Ignorance at its worst. Why are we as a society saying "musicians shouldnt make money if they stop making music they arent musicians!" NO How about "musicians are trying to make money off what they love to do, but everybody takes their product for free, forcing them to get another job not enabling them to work on music as much!" Like I said earlier, making music and living off it is the exact SAME as any other job, so why take this away>? Well, few want to admit it, but it is as simple as greed. People want shit for free because its simple, and free! If everyone admitted this there would be no problem. What I hate are pro-piracy companies trying to alter the moral and legal landscape to suit their greedy agenda, and twisting it while musicians and labels who do completely honorable and legal work get slammed and victimized because of it. THAT is not honoroable, nor legal, nor morally right. |
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i download music illegally and legally, and on occasion i buy a record or a cd. nobody else is responsible for this behavior but me. nobody else should be persecuted for running a torrent website because this doesn't solve the problem, if there really is one. i'm rather shocked by the fact that several people all of a sudden seem disappointed that this guy isn't in jail (for hosting a website where other people downloaded copyrighted files). this is fucking insane. piracy is not the end of the world. why would art still exist if piracy is killing everything off? we make choices. sometimes we buy, sometimes we dont. in the end, i believe its all quite balanced. where are you pro piracy people hanging out? awfully quiet on the other side of the fence. |
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this stuff about morals is completely ridiculous. we are all greedy at times but you can't judge someone for downloading music because you don't know what effect it'll have in the long run. i think you have a very flawed idea of how things should be, with artists hanging on to their dear lives praying someone will please be so kind and moral and pure and honest to give them their well deserved money. if you are having a hard time making a living through music alone, obviously you need to make money with something else, and that doesn't have to stop you from being motivated at all. it happens everywhere. |
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I admit even in a world where nobody pirates, 80% of artists cant make money off their music alone. But that's not what I meant either. There have been a lot of labels especially like merck records whom the owner himself admits piracy killed. But even so, why is the morals stuff completely ridiculous? It is too much to ask for people to buy for what they use? Even when labels invest in cover, pressing, mastering? Every business in the world is run on the idea of profit and return, so why is art and media different? Why shouldn't art be made into a business? Is that what you are arguing? I never said art would be dead, I said the business of art would. Most likely music will be decentralized in the sense that every artist will have to host their own music for free if piracy takes over completely. It's not quite there yet. My CD with 1k listeners on last.fm sold around 30 copies to strangers online, so there is still a market, but there's also the other side of the coin where many albums are downloaded tenfold the amount of times they are bought. you say its balanced, and I wouldn't have all the facts to say definitely, but my point is that I don't think piracy is something to be proud of or something society should condone. In the perfect world we should all be sitting down and come up with a model for art that we're all happy with. I have nothing against change, or even "the death of the business of art" IF it works for all parts. I am not as I may have sounded in my earlier post a dumb follower of the old way of doing things. But I think when labels and artists put time and effort into a release that costs money, we are not entitled to download it, and we shouldn't be proud of it if we do. |
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cant blame the shipwright for the sailors actions. |
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i can understand your frustrations up to a point but there really is no use in labeling our so called behaviour as immoral or wrong or offensive etc. it just is. piracy exists because it can. it has emerged because that is the logical progression of everyone being online and forming into some kind of collective consciousness. just because a band, a label etc put money into an art project doesn't mean anyone is automatically obligated to pay them for it. if a product is good enough people will buy it or support them by buying merchandise and going to concerts etc. most likely people aren't proud of their pirate behaviour but can still accept it as being justifiable. the days of listening to a cd in a shop are, perhaps sadly, over and we all expect to be able to find out if something is worth our money when there is so much to choose from. it may not be fair but this attitude applies to everything in life. it is survival of the fittest. everything and everyone must adapt. or alternatively our corrupt governments can install some new laws that violate a load of human rights in an attempt to put a stop to the unstoppable. that said, i'm very unhappy with the way my thoughts are materializing today so sorry for not properly addressing all your points. i need to clear my head for a bit. |
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What about ads inside the songs? |
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cwnt's great idea for making money: study electronic engineering in university good qualification. still jobs available even in current time of economic crisis. then if youre sensible you can afford to pay for vinyls, parties, websites bonus cash from selling t shirts and making a donations button available cwnt (slwt:cwnt axis 24b) |
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i would really like to see product placement in songs, so that eventually there will be the nascar equivalent in music and bands will just write albums full of catchy jingles about jamba juice and wal-mart. irt cx: I don't think piracy is something to be proud of or something society should condone. In the perfect world we should all be sitting down and come up with a model for art that we're all happy with. the problem here is that the morality of so-called piracy is no longer the issue. it has happened, and it's not going away. it's the same problem with the prohibition of alcohol in the 1920's and the current rise of the decriminalization of marijuana in the united states. these are all regarding things which some believe to be immoral, however a large percentage of society still practices it, with little downfall. and when something like this is so wide-spread, does it really make sense to criminalize such a large portion of the populace for something you can't stop them from doing anyway? yes, you can argue that we can't take the stance of "if everyone's doing it then it must be okay," and say that if that were the case then we could legalize rape, murder, etc. but that just won't happen. while an individual's morality is subjective, the enforced morality of a society is that which is most common. rape isn't going to become legal because not enough people are going to be okay with that. people don't like rape. people like booze, weed, and free music. and what happens is the law changes to adapt to this. "okay, you can have beer, but only at a certain level of maturity, and only in certain conditions upon which you aren't harming anyone." check out for a look at how things can and do work under a system which embraces the new abilities which technology has provided us. |
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well, if enough artists and other people against piracy wanted to do something about it, they could. many people avoid criminal activity because they think it is wrong, but many others avoid it just because of the risk involved or stigma attached to it. piracy doesn't have much risk, and it doesn't have the stigma attached that other more obvious criminal activity does. go to a prostitute and risk getting a disease, steal from a store and risk getting busted and arrested. piracy, however, is kind of like looting when the streets are filled with rioters, or speeding when every other car on the road is doing the same thing, the chances of you getting busted are far less. plus the fact that you are doing it from the safety of your home. well, apparently the government can't really do anything to stop it, like hedphukkerr said it's like prohibition. the riaa suits are winding down because of the PR backlash it put on them. it hurt them in many ways more than helped, and who wants to see them get money out of it anyway? is that justice, certainly not for the smaller independent artists who are probably more affected by it. so what solution is there, if any? make it like other crime. make it not safe. if every musician, record shop owner, distributor, or just regular citizen who did not wish to see the quality of music collapse, organized and got together, this is what they could do. introduce every type of virus, malware, spyware, whatever you can think of, into the stream of sites like waffles, what.cd, etc. to the best of my knowledge there cannot be a centralized server or else that party can get busted for hosting, so the software just provides a link between people and provides some management features like seeding, ratio stats, etc. right? is there much protection against viruses and malware, other than what an individual has on his or her computer? i know you have to get invites to these sites, which is why they have been safer than say limewire, but people can be pretty cleve |
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People are Cleve. |
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post was too long, and xltronic truncated it for me. wasn't going to make another post for one letter and punctuation. you are very close to 10 k now. will you make your 10k post in your thread? |
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You sound like you're from the Dark ages. 'Bury a toad under your sheets and thy warts will be banished from thy knob' Not that different from 'indulgences' which was a nice earner for Christianity selling pardons to get in to heaven. |
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you really got me all figured out. am i so transparent? also i thought the dark ages were when many christians were persecuted and killed, not that any of this, your comment or my reply, are on topic. where did that come from anyway, something you've been saving up from another thread? |
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I meant the middle ages really. |
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I think we should go back to tapes and copy those from each other..I really miss the noise in the background from tapes. And every pirate should be killed. Just like what they do with somalian pirates: just shoot them to Neptune. Problem solved. |
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Haha! I don't think killing Somalians will help. |
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It stops piracy (a bit) |
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congrats with your 10.000th post!! |
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The irony about piracy is that piracy will kill itself. If enough people downloaded, there wouldn't be anyone willing to release anything for money, and thus piracy would be gone. It's living on a lie. On the one hand, people don't seem to like netlabels or free music, they expect artists and labels to pay for a proper release, but when they do that, instead of supporting the artist they download it from torrents. Right now we're living in a weird time because piracy hasnt taken completely over, and there is still some juice in purchasing music, especially digitally. But I think everyone would regret it the day all labels shut down and there would no longer be trusted entities releasing music. All that would be left would be netlabels and net releases, of which many people don't think are proper. I know this is taken to the extreme, and we're far away from this situation, but think about it. |
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well written article, bit long but worth the read. |
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I think smarter people then the dumb masses should decide for them that this free music is not best option for the future of music and art |
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anyway, i'm not even sure how christian my recommendation of vigilante justice is. something i've been thinking about. it's kind of like the boston tea party or something, perhaps. like small militias, which are still supposedly legal in the US. maybe one could look at it like a citizen's arrest, with a tazer. in any case is suspect you are getting a tad senile in your middle ages, at the ripe old age of 10,000 points. |
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toilets work best if there is water. micro wave ovens work best if there is electricity fotografs work best if there is an aperture movie theaters work best if there is no ambient light internet works best if there is no artificial blockage |
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yes, it's taken to the extreme, and absolutely not going to happen. using hyperbole isn't a very good argument. you could also take it to the extreme where the record companies win, every last downloader was fined and put in jail, the world's non-incarcerated population drops, and we're left with cd's which cost $25 a piece. oh, and the software companies got in with them so now you can't even rip your cd that you bought to mp3s. if you want those, you will have to buy them off itunes, which was gone back to some extreme drm, only licensing a song for listening five times until you have to buy it again. and music becomes so expensive and such a hassle that no one buys it anymore, instead taking up less tiresome hobbies like whittling. subsequently, the record companies lose all their money, shut down, and music is once again gone forever. OH THE HUGE MANATEE! you see? it's always going to sound ridiculous when you take things to the extreme. you know why? because the argument hinges on the fact that everyone - not a lot of people - EVERYONE is doing the same thing. which just isn't going to happen. i was dating a girl last summer who had never stolen anything in her life, not even music, and there are plenty others who will always have the income, the lack of technological know how, and the lack of drive to steal their music. or do i have to use that age old argument about how kid a was so successful when first released because it was leaked and downloaded. irt big: okay, i suppose decide isn't the most apt term. maybe determine? because it's not like there's an actual conscious choice being made, it's just the mechanic which drives things. of course it would be better if the best and brightest determined everything for us - if that were the case, creative commons would be the law as opposed to a fringe movement and the whole downloading thing would have been figured out in the times of napster. or you could listen to terence. i think he says it a bit more simply. |
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well i'm saying it's fatalistic to just give into the piracy just because the means to pirate so easily are there (on the other hand i guess it is hard to stop. and prolly music should be sold cheaper. ) |
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donate what you can. |
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big: it is $.99 - 1.50 per song. not really that expensive if bought on bleep, itunes, etc. terence: right, i know. that is why the boston tea party is a good example, because both england and the colonies understood that principal, first by the english in sanctions through taxation, and then by the colonials in dumping the tea into the harbor. of course things work better when not artificially blocked, which is why seiges and sanctions exist in the 1st place. also, to anyone, i get the whole giant bloated record industry overcharging for everything to sustain their massive overhead, and how it is evil for them to sue people for thousands and thousands of dollars. as we've addressed before though, we aren't getting the mainstream stuff, and it is the small labels and artists that are getting shafted the worst because people like us are downloading that stuff free too. we are all tech savvy, and grandpa i dunno how to download isn't listening to it and thus isn't buying it. of course people do still buy music, but so what. if i owned an apple stand, and over half of people that walked by took an apple and stuck it in their pocket, do you think i am going to accept, oh, well the other half still came to the register and payed for it, just be happy for that. NO, i bought or grew every one of these apples, each on has a price and i expect each one to be payed for. |
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dudesltronic this thread is tldr but i got shit to say: music is empty now it is easy. |
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yeah but if you own an apple stand, and someone takes one of your apples, you have one less apple to sell to the honest people. if the people who stole apples didn't take away apples from you and instead picked them from a nearby tree then you would still be selling the same amount of apples but just have a greater excess at the end of the day. filesharing doesn't work like that because the original isn't removed - when a person downloads a song, legally or illegally, it in no way inhibits that song from being brought to other people as well. but still i think an important thing to note is that this isn't finished. we're still in the middle of this evolutionary process. think about that: this shit is blowing up right now, all around you. we're the thick of it, it will be these conversations which people look to to see how the populace viewed the copyright wars. and in the end, half of us will be right and half will be wrong, but the thing to remember is that right now the issue is still wholly unresolved and we still have a long way to go in figuring out how media, zero-cost distribution, and copyright can coexist stably. |
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ok, well there isn't a real world analogy for it because file sharing and digital copying is unique. i guess we will have to go to science fiction. so now i have an apple pie stand, and my recipe is world famous, in fact famous across the galaxy because we are in the year 3,000. no other apple pie tastes quite like the one i bake, and i have a secret recipe that has been passed down through my family for ages. now, here come all the people off of their space ship and many of them have the latest technological advancement, which is a duplicator or replicator gun. they are able to walk up to my stand, scan my pie, and store the exact molecular information in the gun. they take it home, upload it to some kind of microwave, and out comes my pie, exactly like i made it (unless they use some compression, in which case it might taste just a tad stale). to make matters worse, some pie stands in russia have begun to sell my pie at a fraction of the cost, and now people are ordering it from them instead of me! the result is the same, my family business which has endured though the years because of the success of our secret recipe is now in danger of going bankrupt because i can't sell as many if any pies. |
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that was pretty clever. made me smile. also reinforces my belief that russians are assholes. |
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